UP Sues Athearn and Lionel over Trademark infringement

[walt]

You dont need to charge a licensing fee to exhibit control over your trademark... Especially with UP controlling the properties of maybe a dozen fallen flag names under its umbrella (UP, SP, DRGW, CNW, CGW, M&StL, and many more), this only adds up to greed- or bullying. Take your pick.

-otto-

This is all very true, however the courts will not be concerned with whether UP's position is greed, bullying, or something else. They will only be concerned with whether UP has the legal right to control access to the use of its present logo, and whether its present action is a "proper" ( legally) exercise of that right. As a practical matter I doubt very much whether UP loses anything because there are Athern or Lionel model trains running around people's basements or rec. rooms sporting the UP logo, or whether use of that particular logo is anything more than a minimal factor in the profits earned by Athern and Lionel from the sale of their model railroad equipment. This might be a factor in the damages phase of any trial, but won't affect any holding that UP has the right to charge what it will for the use of the logo. Charging for the use of fallen flag logos, however, may be another matter.

[denis]

I read this past week that UP lost its case against these to model manuf.
Anybody else aware of this?

[Xplorer2000]

Hadn't heard that , but I did hear an interesting tidbit on the radio about UP....seems the Federal Gov't is accusing them of covering up grade crossing accidents and tampering with evidence...to the point of sending crews out to replace defective signals before the FRA has a chance to inspect the accident scene, and of deliberately destroying evidence. Seems UP can't catch a break these days.... a little bad karma, perhaps???

[AmtrakFan]

This is Pathetic first of all they can't run their own Railroad, 2nd It isin't fair to people their just trying to Stop the Model Railroad Industry from Using their Name and Logos 3rd They shouldn't have to make Companies pay for the License they should be free. If it's going to the Steam Program I wouldn't have a problem with the Fees now but if it's going to Profit it's Garbage.

Amtrakfan

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

Boo hoo. The poor model railroad/hobby manufacturers cant use roadnames for free. Boo hoo. There not as poor or innocent as many of you think they are.

They really needed that extra 5% profit that so many people think big bad evil heartless UP doesn't deserve or need.

Like it or not if you support the unathorized use of trademark logos and names without permission or renumeration, YOU'RE WRONG!

I wonder does Amtrak charge for it's logo? Would they be financially strapped (or less so) if they did?

You know maybe while I'm at it I'll make some Lionel brand shirts, you know, get my screen printer out, do up som art, print em and sell em. $$$$$

Oh you know I should print up some Athearn posters and sell those too.

It will be great, even more profit margin for me because I dont have to pay Athearn or Lionel a dime!!!!

The argument many of you have against UP (or lack thereof, basically big bad UP, they've got enough money already) is so il-logical it's amazing.

Grow up people.

[JDFX]

Well WANF,

Since you seem not to have a problem with paying a royalty fee to Union Pacific for expired, fallen flag logos, then by all means, be my guest, and offer to pay the fees for me, and every other modeler out there as well.

As I have said in the past, If its the UP Logo, I will pay the 5%, if its anything other (CNW, CGW, WP, DRGW, etc.) then I shouldn't have to as these railroads never protected their trademarks in the hobby industry before, and now they are pretty much extant. (May exist on paper but otherwise, non existant.. Kinda like the D&H)

As for UP and the Fed Gov't. I heard something on the radio as well, and yes, it sounds like the railroad is really trying to pull the wool over the FRA's eyes all the time.

Don't worry, well perhaps you should. If UP gets fined repeatedly by the FRA, I'd be willing to bet that they will raise the costs of the "royalty fees" to cover their screw ups.

[Nico]

Boo hoo. The poor model railroad/hobby manufacturers cant use roadnames for free. Boo hoo. There not as poor or innocent as many of you think they are.

I can give an angle to this situation from a European horizon and the situation is, more or less, considered by the most of those I spoken with, as UP is acting childish. Perhaps the MR manufacturers aren’t all that poor and innocent, but nevertheless, I can’t really se that they do any wrong either. I don’t either support any misuse of trademark logos and such, but I don’t actually think that remunerations is needed. For the UP this is really nothing but pea-nuts, but for the MR manufacturers, and for us, the buyers, it’s still going too be some extra money. UP would have been better of, if they perhaps would have said that they’ve noticed the matter, but in the name of good will intended too just let it pass, since it could cause them no harm. I do suppose that Amtrak has talked it over and found out that there is no gain in it.

As goes for the Lionel shirts and the Athearn posters that’s a somewhat different issue, since that’s an abuse of the trademark, while the MR manufacturers are depicting an object that just happens too have UP markings on it. There is really no neglect or misuse, nor should it cause UP any problems. I’ve heard that some years ago, a European state railway thought of doing exactly the same thing that UP have done, but their solicitors told them too forget it since, despite the fact that they could have won, the entire matter was both ridiculous as well as impractical, and the public embarrassment and the loss of good will would be a greater defeat than the possible gain was worth. On the other hand, we don’t have the same judicial tradition in Europe, and our solutions would therefore probably be different.

Regards

[XBNSFer]

The idea that UP "needs" to do what they're doing is utterly ridiculous. Their paint scheme and logos have been put on model RR equipment for decades, and it's a little late for them to suddenly become concerned about it, as if they have anything to become legitimately concerned about.

I think the model manufacturers should come out with equipment painted in UP colors and label them "Usually Parked" instead of "Union Pacific," with the slogan "We Will Deliver...Eventually." Maybe THAT would shut UP up LOL.

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

Because the police don't enforce J-walking rules does not mean the law does not exist. When you cross the street not using a cross walk, you're still breaking the law.

The issue is trademark theft/protection, not how UP runs it's railroad, not the reason as to why UP is doing what they're doing.

Yes maybe UP should have enforced it's trademark decades ago but they didn't, oh well. But then again Model Railroading was never as popular as it is today and who knows, years ago it may not have been worth it to go after a few hundred thousand in revenue.

You know the lack of respect we get as railfans and model railroaders.

Today model makers are bringing in MILLIONS. Besides just because UP didn't enforce before does not mean they never can or never should.

I still fail to see why this is such a frightening issue to so many of you. This unwritten model railroad armageddon that you think supposedly will happen.

The worst that will happen is you'll pay a few dollars more for your "Made in China" or "Made in Malaysia" models. Lets not forget that Athearn, Walthers et al have their own morally defunct ways of making money, shipping molds and production overseas for low wage labor.

Fortunately UP employs way more people than all the model railroad companies combined and they cant move the rails overseas, another reason to side with UP.

UP is legally right. If you don't like it I suggest you sell your stock in UP, change your roadname to something different, and petition to have the intellectual property rights in this country changed.

Perhaps morally and from a public relations position they are wrong, but somehow I doubt UP cares what a half dozen model railroaders and 200,000 modellers industry wide really think. Their shareholders have a lot more pull than any of us do.

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

As goes for the Lionel shirts and the Athearn posters that’s a somewhat different issue, since that’s an abuse of the trademark, while the MR manufacturers are depicting an object that just happens too have UP markings on it. There is really no neglect or misuse, nor should it cause UP any problems.
Regards

Oh there would be no abuse, I would be selling a high quality product. Mugs, posters. You know. Collectable type of stuff. Keychains, T-shirts, artwork. The kind of things you see in a Schrader catalog. Pricey things.

I think I could probably pull down $100k profit in my first 2 years. Ohh yeah, Cha Ching! Thanks Athearn, thanks Lionel.

It's only an abuse if I write "Lionel sucks" or "Athearn sucks" under it, or if I put it on some sort of "personal" personal care product. Say Athearn brand toilet paper.

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

Well WANF,

Since you seem not to have a problem with paying a royalty fee to Union Pacific for expired, fallen flag logos, then by all means, be my guest, and offer to pay the fees for me, and every other modeler out there as well.

Don't worry, well perhaps you should. If UP gets fined repeatedly by the FRA, I'd be willing to bet that they will raise the costs of the "royalty fees" to cover their screw ups.

Ohh the great JDFX....welcome back buddy.

No you can pay your own UP licensing fees thank you. Thanks for the fear mongering with your hypothetical situations too. I think you're bitter that UP merged with your favorite fallen flag.

Don't worry, I'm bitter toward David LeVan selling out my Conrail to the evil stepsisters CSX and NS, talk about your Operational screw ups. But if I can't afford models anymore, I can always stop buying them and fire up the airbrush.

Any amount of royalty fees would bearly make a dent on the UP bottom line. Particularly given that UP had a gross operating revenue of $11 BILLION (with a very capital B) dollars last year. And any fee the FRA could levy bearly makes a dent in that chunk of change. Lets see, to cover the difference of FRA fines alone UP would need to charge probably about a $3,000 licencing fee per model.

Uh huh, yeah THAT would happen. LOL.

[Otto Vondrak]

WANF, your logic regarding this whole situation is flawed. Cool it.

-otto-

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

No my logic is not flawed.

The problem is I'm the only one with a dissenting opinion and darn good logic to back it up.

I don't believe I've violated any rules of this board and until I have I'll nicely ask you to stop trying to sensor me and my views.

Thank you.

[Nico]

It's only an abuse if I write "Lionel sucks" or "Athearn sucks" under it, or if I put it on some sort of "personal" personal care product. Say Athearn brand toilet paper.

Well, abuse could be defined in different ways. If one gains profit directly from the use of a certain trademark, while the owner of the trademark suffers from it, then that would probably be abuse in a legal sense. In the scenario with UP I can hardly, if all, see how UP is suffering a bit. Instead they probably had a tremendous good will value that they just flushed down a certain place.

No my logic is not flawed.

The problem is I'm the only one with a dissenting opinion and darn good logic to back it up.

I now that I’m a newcomer at this sight, but nevertheless. I must ask to which kind of logic your contributions are referred. I haven’t read anything yet, that would convince me the slightest, that your nonconforming opinion may be right. Perhaps the toymakers as well as other manufacturers in this business are bringing in millions, all together, but not as individual entities. If all companies would follow UP’s infantile behavior, then we soon probably wouldn’t have any productions of models and toys at all. I can hardly see any logic here, and I’m yet too be convinced of the opposite.

It seems more like a kind of personal grudge against Lionel and Athearn. Why that is, I don’t know and don't understand. From my point of view, it’s a relief that I’m not modeling UP, but I’m sorry for those who does. If UP wins, then I’m quite convinced of that the licensing fees are going too be more than just a few bucks, and I’ll never accept paying extra for something that’s caused by something that I would characterize as the hurt feelings and vanity of a RR company.

[WANF-11--->Chaser]

Oh Lord.

Now I'm accused of having a personal grudge against Lionel and Athearn. Nevermind the fact that I own 5 Athearn locomotives, countless rolling stock and several Lionel collectables AND a Concor UP GP-40!

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. But I think a lot of you have lost your minds not to see the larger picture.

You know what, forget it.

Fine, let this post turn into a rant session against UP. That seems to be all that many of you want it to be anyway.

Enjoy. God forbid in America someone have a dissenting opinion and disagree, nah thats not what America is about we're all supposed to agree.

Wallow in self pitty about supposed hobby armageddon, wallet "breaking" price increases, and big bad UP, rather than acknowledge what's right and fair under the law and morally.

I love it when I'm right.

Over and out!