• North River Tunnels (Hudson River) Discussion (Repairs, History, Status, Etc.)

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by mike253
 
Traveling from NY Penn to Baltimore last week my seatmate commented on how she hated going through tunnels. I assured her the tunnels were in great shape despite being opened in 1910. Sometime later her comment got me thinking. In Jill Jonnes fascinating book "Conquering Gotham" I learned that the screw pilings that were designed to support these tunnels on bedrock were never installed. There was also a section which dealt with the tunnels rising and falling with the tide on the Hudson. The questions that came to mind were:
1) How much rise or fall are we talking about - millimeters, Inches?
2) Does the passage of a heavy passenger train cause them to deflect, also?
and
3) Since the tunnels "float" within the silt at the bottom of the river, what kind of device can be used to measure the deflections?

As you can tell, I'm no engineer!
Thanks, Mike
  by Jeff Smith
 
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/89624009-story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Emergency Amtrak track repairs a Hudson River tunnel is causing delays on New Jersey Transit trains in and out of Penn Station in New York.

"These repairs are expected to run through 5 p.m. when trains to/from PSNY may experience 60-minute delays during the evening peak," NJ Transit said in an alert.

PATH and NJ Transit bus service (including private bus carriers) are cross-honoring NJ Transit rail tickets and passes.
  by SRich
 
post Phone the regular maintenance and this will happen....

Witch of the 2 tunnels is closed?
  by Jeff Smith
 
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2016/0 ... nj_tr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
NEWARK, N.J. — Rail commuters in New York and New Jersey can expect delays for a second consecutive day.

New Jersey Transit says emergency track repairs in the 106-year old north tube of Amtrak's Hudson River tunnel are causing 10- to 15-minute delays.


Emergency repairs are expected to run through 5 p.m. when trains to/from #NYPenn may experience 60-minute delays during the evening peak
— NJ TRANSIT (@NJTRANSIT) February 12, 2016

The agency says the work is likely to continue until at least 5 p.m. and will cause hour-long delays through the evening commute. Amtrak sent an a
  by DanD3815
 
So when will the powers that be, wake up and do what needs to be done. Or do they want to wait before both tunnels are completely unusable.
  by TrainPhotos
 
DanD3815 wrote:So when will the powers that be, wake up and do what needs to be done. Or do they want to wait before both tunnels are completely unusable.

'Murica!

In a more serious note, things are in the works to get this done..
  by ThirdRail7
 
This had less to do with the age of the tunnel and more to do with the temperature. This could have happened in a new tunnel.
  by Cab Car 424
 
Probably the busiest two tracks (24/7) in the entire US and confined in ancient tunnels. Something has to give.
  by Defiant
 
On a slightly different note, I see this as a symbol of what is wrong with American society. Given horrible deficiencies in the infrastructure, everyone kept arguing about the need for upgrades for decades. Somehow, having non third world infrastructure is expensive. Spending the same amount per year or for six months in Iraq or Afghanistan is considered smart. Giving tax breaks to corporations or hedge fund managers in roughly the same amount is also considered not a problem. Only a third world country would've subjected thousands of its citizens to traveling in 100+ year tunnels every day...
  by electricron
 
You would have a point if the USA didn't spend even more $Billions every year on transportation.
USDOT budget is around $98 Billion per year. It rarely participates in any project at more than 50%, so at least another $98 Billion or so is contributed by the 50 States. The idea that no money at all is being used to fix and improve infrastructure is wrong.

Additionally, Amtrak's around $1 Billion subsidy each year is more than 1% of the entire USDOT budget. Amtrak reports having 30 Million riders over an entire year, per USDOT Americans take 411 billion daily trips a year; about 1,500 trips per person per year. Amtrak's share would be 0.007299270073%, far far far less than 1%. Math: 30 /411,000 = 0.00007299270073

While the North River tunnels are very busy, most of its users are local, originating and ending their trips within the states of New Jersey and New York. The idea that Amtrak and the US government should entirely fund repairs and expansion of these tunnels is wrong. Local funding sources should also contribute. Take Boston's Big Dig as an example, around $22 Billion total budget including interest payments, only $4 Billion came from the USDOT. That means the locals share was around $17 Billion.
  by Jeff Smith
 
So the Canarsie repairs are done, and US DOT wants to use that method on the North River, since Gateway (link to thread) won't die. I figured I'd create a separate topic for repairs. I know that topic probably contains a lot of information on potential repairs, but I'm not going through 142+ pages! I'm not THAT bored!

Here's the relevant portion: https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/ra ... completed/
...
A variation of Canarsie Tunnels rehabilitation may be used on the North River Tunnels (Hudson Tunnels) between New Jersey and New York Penn Station on Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor. Part of the proposed Gateway Program includes two new tracks in new tunneling under the Hudson River, but Gateway’s proponents have consistently pushed for a project schedule that called for completing the new tunnel before the existing ones would be repaired. That would take at least ten years, although Gateway Vice Chair and Amtrak Board Chair Anthony R. Coscia expressed doubt that the existing tunnels were certain to last even five more years, while continuing to alarm the public and disparage the method used to rehabilitate the Canarsie Tunnels.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao later called for the method used to repair the Canarsie Tunnels to be used on the Hudson Tunnels. “I’m pleased to report that the [USDOT] is working closely with Amtrak to advance rehabilitation work on the existing Hudson Tunnels,” she said. “Given the time, the cost and the complexity of building entirely new tunnels, the Department is working with Amtrak to design and validate a faster and more cost-effective method to improve safety and functionality as the first order of business. So, beginning rehab work in the near term is the right move, not waiting years for the construction of new tunnels beforehand.”
...
  by mtuandrew
 
I thought the issue was with corrosion and fatigue cracks in the cast iron tunnel itself, not just the concrete bench wall and the tunnel liner. If it’s only the masonry then sure, Canarsie it! And put the money toward two new tunnels and a down payment on a second pair.