Amtrak/LIRR Moynihan Train Hall

[Jtgshu]

So, NJT is going to have two completely seperate stations, blocks apart, and only run certain trains for certain lines out of each station....that is VERY stupid......

IRFCA is right - some people can't even understand that one and two is different than twelve....and they are going to add to the madness by having two seperate terminals?

Expand the current Penn station OVER to 34th street - how about that if they are so hellbent on this 34th st thing....make 30 plus tracks in the current station....What will happen when there is a broken down train in the tunnel to 34th st. station? Are they going to shuttle bus everyone to NYP? What happens when a person goes to the wrong terminal? Things like this.......it seems no one is thinking about, but rather how much money can we spend and make life completely difficult for all those who have to use it.

How many millions of dollars are being spent to build this station in Farley, and it looks as if NJT is going to be the main tennent in it....So NJT will have the Farley station, the current Penn station, the new 7th Ave concourse, AND a new 34th St. station? Come on, thats rediculous.

[JoeG]

The Farley station might be an impressive monument, but what will it do for passengers? It will make me walk an exra block, that's all. And, how will they extend platforms at full width to go under Farley? I hope NJT refuses to participate in this boondoggle.

[Jishnu]

There is honestly a need for more space in Penn Station. With over half a million people going through there every day, it's packed, and is only going to get worse, with subway ridership increasing and NJ Transit expanding service. But Head-end View was right when that they just spent hundreds of millions on updating PS. So the solution seems obvious: just go w/ option "P1" and build right under the existing station.

The NEC, NJCL & MidTown Direct - the lines that ppl use most - can go to can go to Moynihan, the nicer station; the others can go under PS.

And as far as I wonder if anyone over @ NJ Transit thought about how annoying it would be to have some trains in Moynihan & others @ 34th street? It would be a mess.

Moynihan station is just another entrance to the platforms that are in Penn Station. It is just a different concourse for the same station. There is no space to build significant additional platforms there. Perhaps the diagonal platform can be repositioned less diagonally and be used as an additional two tracks.

All the new platforms (8 in all, two pairs of 4) are planned for the 34th St. station, and this is supposed to happen in conjunction with THE tunnel so it is 2014 or later.

As far as the pre-THE tunnel plan goes, the plan is to exapnd the A yard be removing the diagonal platform and replacing it with a parallel platform, but this platform will still be used for parcel/mail and not for passengers. Additional access to platforms 1 - 8 will be built from the 8th Ave. side too as part of the moynihan project, and tracks 1 to 4 will be extended Eastward to make it possible to put full length trains in them. Addiitonal egress is planned at the Easternmost end of extended tracks 1 - 4. Also the middle concourse is to be extended all the way to provide stairs from tracks 1 - 10. The target date for all this is 2010 - 2012.

The plans for this were shown and discussed at the last RCLC. Hopefully the documents will be available on the ARC website sometime real soon now.

BTW, I am just stating what I saw/heard at the RCLC meeting, and am not particularly espusing any particukar plan over another. So please refrain from shooting the messenger.

/J

[trainhq]

I don't think they would close the existing Penn Station; they'd just move some of it (NJT) over to Farley,and let the LIRR (maybe Metro North?)have the rest. I don't know whether Amtrak will move over too; they don't want to pay rent on the Farley building. I think they will move eventually, when they get more $$$ in a different political climate.

[Bensalem SEPTA rider]

Will there be an underground connection between the stations?

[Jishnu]

I don't think they would close the existing Penn Station; they'd just move some of it (NJT) over to Farley,and let the LIRR (maybe Metro North?)have the rest. I don't know whether Amtrak will move over too; they don't want to pay rent on the Farley building. I think they will move eventually, when they get more $$$ in a different political climate.

There are no plans for NJT to move out of the 7th Ave concourse even after Farley comes on line. Tracks 1 - 4 will continue to be exclusively used by NJT. They are planning to lengthen tracks 1-4 eastward and add additional stairs at the easternmost end of the extension, as well as in the middle of the platform extending the middle corridor all the way to track 1, in addition to adding access stairs + corridors from the Farley building.

Will there be an underground connection between the stations?

Yes.

/J

[rvrrhs]

Maybe the best idea would be to move all Amtrak ops over to the new 34th Street station, and let NJT use the extra capacity at NYP/Moynihan!

[Jishnu]

Won't work 'cause 34th st is not a run through station. It is a stub end station. So Amtrak would not be able to run its NYP - Boston service out of there.

/J

[Bensalem SEPTA rider]

But in that case, wouldn't NJT have a hard time with its Midtown Direct trains pulling in and out? I mean, they better have a bigger terminal if they're gonna plan on making a dent in the capacity issue.

[Jishnu]

It will be an 8 track stub end terminal. Empty consists will either get assigned to Westbound service at the station or they will pull out westbound through THE tunnel to a holding yard near Secaucus Jct. located roughly along the old Boonton Line alignment and connected to the High Line at Lack.

/J

[Jtgshu]

So they will "hold" trainsets at that new yard in SEC, requiring 2 extra, non revenue moves though the tunnels (first one in, drop off passengers, second one out, no pass, third one back in, fourth one out, with passengers)

Boy that just eats up all that brand new capacity doesn't it?

Extend the platforms west in teh current Penn station, move the ladder tracks as close to the mouth of the existing Portals as possible, put the new tunnels next or near the empire tunnel, and install mid platform crossovers (ie. like on the middle tracks in the station) so trains can "parallel park" if you will, on the east end of the station (current NJT 7th ave concourse area) and put moving walkways to the western end of the station where the trains will actually load. Build new station south of current station and track one....34th St. side has too much LIRR interference over there.

One train would leave, the next one can simply pull forward from its "slot" in the back. That way, you could pretty much have a conveyer belt of trains unloading on the east end, loading on the west end, and not make all these rediculous non revenue moves.

[rvrrhs]

Won't work 'cause 34th st is not a run through station. It is a stub end station. So Amtrak would not be able to run its NYP - Boston service out of there.

They could use one of the proposed loop tracks to link to NYP for through-service. Amtrak and other railroads use a number of stub-end stations (Grand Central, for example). Aren't Boston and/or D.C.'s main stations stub-end, too?

[Jishnu]

Won't work 'cause 34th st is not a run through station. It is a stub end station. So Amtrak would not be able to run its NYP - Boston service out of there.

They could use one of the proposed loop tracks to link to NYP for through-service. Amtrak and other railroads use a number of stub-end stations (Grand Central, for example). Aren't Boston and/or D.C.'s main stations stub-end, too?

Which "loop tracks" are you referring to here?

[Jishnu]

So they will "hold" trainsets at that new yard in SEC, requiring 2 extra, non revenue moves though the tunnels (first one in, drop off passengers, second one out, no pass, third one back in, fourth one out, with passengers)

Boy that just eats up all that brand new capacity doesn't it?

That is indeed the greatest weakness of the stub end 34th St proposal. However, if you ask the champions of the proposal they will tell you that the empty moves are always in the less heavy direction through the new tunnel. Ideally, if one could find the funding the new station should be run through connecting through the East River tunnels (new ones or existing ones) to the Sunnysude yard, or even to GCT as was in a proposal that was rejected because MTA did not want to have anything to do with it (Kinda hard to connect to GCT without MTA's cooperation). But the politico-financial alignments of the stars seem to be absent for that one, since NY State or the City does not want to fund that sort of a thing - at least that is what I was told when I raised this exact point.

As for extension South of Penn Station, I will remember to ask that question when I get a chance. But I can sort of suspect that the answer will be that real estate acquisition cost in that area will be prohibitive, since 31 St is not wide enough to pu a substantial station underneath it. Just my suspcion at this point I must emphasize.

/J

[rvrrhs]

Won't work 'cause 34th st is not a run through station. It is a stub end station. So Amtrak would not be able to run its NYP - Boston service out of there.

They could use one of the proposed loop tracks to link to NYP for through-service. Amtrak and other railroads use a number of stub-end stations (Grand Central, for example). Aren't Boston and/or D.C.'s main stations stub-end, too?

Which "loop tracks" are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the "Midtown Loop P-2" illustrated here:http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/i ... _P_map.jpg--as mentioned earlier in this thread.