Railroad Forums 

  • Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

 #1503325  by andegold
 
eolesen wrote:
Tadman wrote: Look at it this way: Given seven long distance trains into NYC from the tunnels, and a train capacity of 400 each, that's 2800 passengers, or less than the capacity of two NJT trains.

On the other hand, wikipedia posits daily ridership of 113,000 for NJT/NEC and 165,000 for Midtown Direct.
^^^ This ^^^

At best, the tunnels are a Port Authority project.

PFC's are paying for most of the improvements at airports today, so why not impose the equivalent of a $1 PFC each way on current tickets that transit the tunnels... PATH would clear $600M a year on that.

How many commuters stop commuting over a $2 tax increase?
How many commuters only travel once a month? At a minimum you've just raised the cost of a monthly ticket by $40 (if you assume 20 commuting days a month).
 #1503338  by CentralValleyRail
 
He didn't even say that, click bait and fake news. The administration didn't allocate funds for the tunnel in the budget, NOWHERE In the article does it say "You can build it yourself " said Trump. Nowhere.
 #1503343  by JoeG
 
In the end the Feds will contribute to Gateway, but probably not as much as NY and NJ would like. However, I don't know how long this will take. Bear in mind that the Dems showed no enthusiasm for the project when they had control. I am hoping Federal money will become available in 2021 but I wouldn't bet the rent on it.
 #1503346  by BandA
 
CentralValleyRail wrote:He didn't even say that, click bait and fake news. The administration didn't allocate funds for the tunnel in the budget, NOWHERE In the article does it say "You can build it yourself " said Trump. Nowhere.
Trump didn't say it in the article, his Deputy Transportation Secretary Jeffrey Rosen said it for him:
there was "no discernible path forward" for a series of projects known as the Gateway Program, which includes the [$13.5B] Hudson tunnel, a $1.7 billion replacement for the Portal Bridge in the Meadowlands, and other improvements between Newark Penn Station and New York Penn Station.
 #1503347  by BandA
 
The existing Hudson tunnels have not been repaired. How much Sandy Storm money are they "entitled" to? You could argue since the tunnels cannot be repaired while in service, the entire cost of the two new tracks should be paid for by FEMA, but then the old tunnels should be rehabbed on NY/NJ's dime. We could start a gofundme, with Pres. Trump matching the first $130K.
 #1503396  by CharlieL
 
If Trump were for it, you would see skidmarks and broken necks from Cuomo, Booker and Schumer (though he's so greasy I doubt the skidmark part) as they immediately and vehemently opposed it. Trump knows how to deal; the others expect to offer basically nothing and get their way. Because they have, for far too long.
 #1503397  by mtuandrew
 
On the one hand, I don’t trust that Schumer and Cuomo (in particular) have pure motives. On the other, I trust Trump’s word as far as I can throw him - and I’m pretty motivated.

In the end, Amtrak controls the NEC and owns the tunnels, and Amtrak will need to arrange for their replacement. Being the sole holder of its preferred stock, that means the Federal government. If New Jersey, the PANYNJ, or Elon Musk wants to build a set of tubes too, fine, but Amtrak still has to pay either on the front end or on the user fee end.
 #1503399  by eolesen
 
The Federal government shouldn't be a landlord... Amtrak owning assets that commuter service depends on is something that needs to end.

PANYNJ should own the stations and tunnels in/out of NYC, just like Metra should own Union Station in Chicago....
 #1503400  by DutchRailnut
 
so you proclaim communism and hell with who owns things ?
 #1503407  by rr503
 
I have my own set of issues with Gateway, but the people who believe that the feds only fund things used by a disproportionately interstate populus are...wrong. Do you realize the sums we spend on porkbarrel rural highway improvement projects? Or the amounts we spent on making what essentially are commuter roads for every city? Or the number of grants issued to local transit projects by the FTA yearly? Or the level of general earmarking and horsetrading that goes on on a federal level? To be sure, I don't think that's a bad thing, but to selectively ignore it is to make a bad argument.

More generally, if you really wanted to make a case that gateway isn't a project of national importance, you shouldn't be looking at absolute stats (literally every bit of transport infrastructure is dominated by commutation) but instead how Gateway's breakdown stacks up against the rest of the country.
 #1503434  by Tadman
 
eolesen wrote:The Federal government shouldn't be a landlord... Amtrak owning assets that commuter service depends on is something that needs to end.

PANYNJ should own the stations and tunnels in/out of NYC, just like Metra should own Union Station in Chicago....
eolesen wrote:The Federal government shouldn't be a landlord... Amtrak owning assets that commuter service depends on is something that needs to end.

PANYNJ should own the stations and tunnels in/out of NYC, just like Metra should own Union Station in Chicago....
I don't think it's communism when one gov't entity battles another for a piece of property.

This does raise a good question. If the commuter trains use far more of the track, why don't they own them? But then we have the New Haven line fiasco where the Acela cruises leisurely behind the 5:15 to Stamford because MN owns the tracks and Amtrak plays second fiddle. We all know how that goes, it's a never-ending topic here.

The alternative is the northwest Indiana solution where there are two parallel passenger railways belonging to the taxpayers. The NICTD and the third NS main that the feds paid for that serves as the western end of the Amtrak Michigan line. From Niles/South Bend to the Illinois Line, there are two parallel taxpayer railroads. Tell me how that adds up. It doesn't, but certain Amtrak and South Shore and NICTD execs didn't want to get into a New Haven situation.
 #1503442  by DutchRailnut
 
In schedule the Acela never gets stuck behind the Stamford local , but when Amtrak shows up at gate already late, they get pot luck .
 #1503477  by ryanov
 
I'll say one thing for Trump: he's done an incredible job at making people with truly asinine ideas stand out in bright daylight. I honestly never thought I'd see the day where people on this forum or RPA (ex-NARP) sites would be arguing that funding a tunnel that would bifurcate the only high speed railway in the entire country would become a "these coastal elites" issue. I suppose it was never stated that this is a forum for railfans; I frequently have to remind myself. (if you do consider yourself a railfan and yet hold these sorts of opinions, please delete your account)

Yeah, a trade of a who knows how many billion dollar stupid wall, solving a non-existent problem (see recent illegal immigration stats) and creating all sorts of other real problems (environmental harm, taking people's land on the border, etc.) for a tunnel that is needed to keep the largest economy in the country running. Makes total sense; why not flush billions down the toilet so that we can extract a more reliable commute from the president (who's supposed to be in office serving the entire country, BTW).

Anyway, are you folks under the impression that because people who live here are the primary users of the tunnel that it doesn't matter to the rest of the country? Every dollar I have ever spent in either Boston or Washington, DC -- or Baltimore or Wilmington for that matter, and nearby areas -- has been courtesy of Amtrak. The NEC is not viable without that tunnel, flat out.
 #1503482  by BandA
 
This is an interesting strategy; Doesn't guarantee any money but requires a response and exposes some of the hypocrisy.

So what is the contingency plan? Start laying keels for a bunch of ferries, now! If a tunnel is shut down, convert some of the road tunnels to buses only 7AM-8PM?
 #1503486  by Backshophoss
 
NYC is about to start congestion tolling in Lower Manhattan,using the EZ-pass toll media to attempt to control the amount of vehicles
on that part of Manhattan Island.

Everybody seems to forget it takes time to kill the wire and 3rd rail in the tubes and confirm it's off,then you need to make sure all
switches are set/blocking devises applied,and shunt jumpers between the rail before MW,B&B, and C&S crews can deploy to work
in the tube,then AFTER all the crews have finished what they can "band-aid" you need the crews and equipment clear,inspect that the track is clear.
and safe for traffic,then remove the shunt jumpers,remove the blocking devises on the switch controls then restore power to the 3rd rail and wire.
Figure on 2-3 hours to shut down and safe the tube for the work session,and 2-3 hours to bring the tube back online safely for traffic
Remember that kills up to 6 hours of the work session time in the tubes.
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