Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

[bostontrainguy]

Well actually, in this region, there is almost never a perfectly designed project. We have no idea what the final shape of Gateway will be when or if it will be built. Waiting for Gateway might be better in a long run if and only if existing 150 year old tunnels don't fail. And if there is no other Superstorm like Sandy. And that is a very big if. If at least one tunnel fails, the region will likely plunge into absolute chaos with unprecedented economic damage.

ARC was far from perfect but it had one huge advantage. It was funded and was being built and would've given NJT another option to get across Hudson. I think canceling it to pay for Governor's more favorite projects was almost a crime. And I believe most of the design problems with ARC were caused by clueless Republicans who wanted to kill Amtrak.

Sorry but I don't get your point. If ARC was built and the existing tunnels fail or there was another Superstorm how would Amtrak operate through trains on the NEC or get to Sunnyside Yard?

[mtuandrew]

Sorry, when I said there would be a tunnel project underway, I meant that Gateway would have risen from ARC’s ashes and would be funded to begin about now.

[JCGUY]

The GOP will almost certainly lose the senate in the next cycle. They have way more seats to defend, and will have Trump dragging down the ticket. You still won't get the votes for the train. And, I'm being sincere here, I really don't understand it. There's no doubt in my mind that the simplest horse trading could have gotten this done in the last administration or now. You wind up with the inescapable conclusion that the left does not actually care enough to get anything built. And no one is has jumped in on why NJ can't handle this on its own over a multi-decade period given that the spread out cost would be a tiny portion of its budget. When NJ prioritizes all $40 billion in its annual spending over applying any money to this project, well guess what, everything else has been prioritized over it. They don't really care.

[bostontrainguy]

Sorry, when I said there would be a tunnel project underway, I meant that Gateway would have risen from ARC’s ashes and would be funded to begin about now.

Yeah, when you think about it ARC would have been pretty much useless if those tunnels eventually do fail. Christie did us a favor. If ARC was built there would have been no money or perceived need to build another BETTER tunnel project. There would have been an incredible uproar if there was another request for millions of dollars to build another tunnel because the millions just spent on ARC were wasted on a flawed useless design.

[andegold]

The GOP will almost certainly lose the senate in the next cycle. They have way more seats to defend, and will have Trump dragging down the ticket. You still won't get the votes for the train. And, I'm being sincere here, I really don't understand it. There's no doubt in my mind that the simplest horse trading could have gotten this done in the last administration or now. You wind up with the inescapable conclusion that the left does not actually care enough to get anything built. And no one is has jumped in on why NJ can't handle this on its own over a multi-decade period given that the spread out cost would be a tiny portion of its budget. When NJ prioritizes all $40 billion in its annual spending over applying any money to this project, well guess what, everything else has been prioritized over it. They don't really care.

The New Jersey governor and legislature don't care because there is no financial payoff for them. Every high paying job in NYC that is filled by a New Jersey resident means LESS, not more, money for Trenton. When you work in NY you pay income tax to Albany, not Trenton. Trenton gives you a credit for taxes paid to Albany. So, to recap, assume a 5% tax rate (yes, both states marginal rates are higher) and a job that pays $100,000. The employee sends $5,000 to Albany. Trenton sends the employee a bill for $5,000. The employee sends Trenton a receipt for paying Albany and Trenton writes off the $5,000. Same employee picks up breakfast between the train and the office and later lunch out who gets the sales tax? Albany. What's in it for Trenton? The municipalities where those employees live get higher property taxes because their property values go up for being close to the train. But the only reason they need higher property taxes is because Trenton can't afford to support the local schools because they have no income tax because they built the tunnel that sent the jobs to NY.

The tunnels are a New York/National project. Not a New Jersey project.

[JCGUY]

Well then, I guess NJ will just have to wait until two branches of the federal government see fit to devote what amounts to an enormous amount of the federal DOT budget to one rail project.

I get that NJ doesn't see much direct income tax from NY commuters, but it's not as if when person X can't get to work in NY from Short Hills, he just gets an equivalent job in NJ. Rather, he probably likes keeping his job, so he'll moves out of NJ. That guy is (or was) paying NJ income tax on investment income, paying sky high property taxes, paying NJ sales tax on everything he buys, etc. The notion that NJ is disadvantaged by having a ton of people commute from NJ to NYC every day is not unusual, but I think utterly misplaced. NJ wouldn't thrive without commuters into NY, rather it would be more likely to out and out collapse without that professional base.

[Arlington]

Speaking of (1) Funding and (2) Gateway being critical to the whole NEC...

Why isn't NY part of the DC+9 NEC states that are designing a regional carbon tax?
https://www.transportationandclimate.or ... sportation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(as of Dec 2018 it is VA DC MD DE PA NJ CT RI VT with the hold-outs being NY & NH)

In Massachusetts' telling of it (from a Republican Governor), it'd amount to $2 more per driver per month.

[mtuandrew]

JCGUY: but our Short Hills banker doesn’t have that many options since CT houses are more expensive at the equivalent distance regardless of property tax, as is the Hudson River Valley of NY. Meanwhile, land cheap enough for their McMansion is pretty far out on Long Island. Presumably if they live in Short Hills, they’re past the life stage where Big City Life appeals too, yet not at the stage where Florida beckons. The fewer, lower-salary Philly jobs aren’t a substitute either, not with that mortgage and the two car payments and Junior & Missy both headed to college - Yale naturally - so it’s NYC or bust.

[JCGUY]

The Short Hills banker, cardiologist, dentist, tech worker (look at class pictures from the schools there, it's probably not what you think), I'm sure enjoy their chosen community, but they need to get to work. If NJ really thinks it has its tax donkeys right where it wants them...well, I guess that is what NJ thinks actually. Good luck.

[Ridgefielder]

JCGUY: but our Short Hills banker doesn’t have that many options since CT houses are more expensive at the equivalent distance regardless of property tax, as is the Hudson River Valley of NY. Meanwhile, land cheap enough for their McMansion is pretty far out on Long Island. Presumably if they live in Short Hills, they’re past the life stage where Big City Life appeals too, yet not at the stage where Florida beckons. The fewer, lower-salary Philly jobs aren’t a substitute either, not with that mortgage and the two car payments and Junior & Missy both headed to college - Yale naturally - so it’s NYC or bust.

It's ~45mins from Short Hills to Penn Station. 45 mins will get you as far as Ossining on the Hudson Division, Chappaqua on the Harlem Division, or Stamford on the New Haven. That's a lot of real estate.

Your Short Hills banker also has the option of making sure he spends exactly 183 days of the year either travelling, vacationing, or working out of his bank's West Palm Beach office.

[mtuandrew]

Your Short Hills banker also has the option of making sure he spends exactly 183 days of the year either travelling, vacationing, or working out of his bank's West Palm Beach office.

That’s after the separation but before the divorce

[Ridgefielder]

I know you're joking but that happens-- and not because of marital troubles! I've heard stories of people obsessively saving receipts and recording *everything* on their MS Outlook calendars which they archive for years. The wife & kids aren't usually going to complain about being "forced" to spend all summer at the beach and the winter breaks skiing anyway.

[JamesRR]

I'm currently reading the book Highway Under the Hudson: The Building of the Holland Tunnel and it's interesting how 100 years ago the same battle was being waged to build the Holland. Between NY and NJ, and both states and the Federal government. It took a coal famine and labor strike to push everyday people to demand the tunnel be built. Seems like it will take the failing of one of the current tunnels to create similar pressure.

[R&DB]

JamesRR, unfortunately you are probably correct about the government (federal and states) needing a catastophy to get motivated.

[amtrakowitz]

JFTR, the title is Highway Under the Hudson: A History of the Holland Tunnel and its author is an urban planner who may have a certain POV on infrastructure. The same machinations that applied to the Holland Tunnel's construction cannot be superimposed over the building of the then-private-sector North River Tunnels, which was the one of the PRR's ways of circumventing the demands of the city and state governments of the locales to be part of a collective-type project where a bridge would have been constructed over the Hudson from Hoboken that the PRR would have to share with other railroads. (Other PRR plans in defiance of the aforementioned bridge included a diverging main line that would have crossed from Rahway NJ into Staten Island and thence to Brooklyn and Queens, having all PRR trains bound for NYP entering via the East River tunnels.) Also, the Holland Tunnel was a means for the state governments in question to circumvent the railroad-owned ferries.