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  • Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

  • This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
    Websites: Current Brightline
    Virgin USA
    Virgin UK
This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
Websites: Current Brightline
Virgin USA
Virgin UK

Moderator: CRail

 #1494943  by gokeefe
 
Rockingham Racer wrote:
gokeefe wrote:A few more million in legal fees and they'll throw in the towel. What's the tab up to so far?

Martin County, 4 million [and the battle is over]

Indian River County, 3 million [and the battle continues with another million authorized]
I would imagine once the bill comes due from the most recent defeat that they will reconsider any further expenditures.
 #1494955  by eolesen
 
Bonevalleyrailfan wrote:As I posted on another forum today, I happened to find a document online today that spells out the amount of money Virgin is investing in Brightline: $30-50 million. If this reflects the 3% figure that was reported previously, then Brightline appears to be valued at anywhere from $1-1.7Billion. I am surprised that Brightline is giving up their brand and allowing 1 of the 4 board of directors for the new company to be picked by Virgin for such a small amount of cash. Of course, Sir Branson is using what appears to be a shell company (Corvina Holdings) located in the British Virgin Islands to escape paying proper taxes. I understand he is known for this sort of stuff in the UK, so it's not unexpected.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... x10-73.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brightline isn't really a brand, it's a company name. There's a huge difference.

Brands have name recognition and good will attached to them, and there's a non-quantifiable value that comes along with that. Think Tide, Morton Salt, Coke, Apple...

Once it is up and running, you'll see probably 50% of the ridership on Brightline/Virgin being foreign tourists.

If you asked 100 people outside of Florida if they've heard of Brightline or Virgin, more are going to recognize Virgin. Ask European or Asian tourists, and 90% will recognize Virgin and likely associate it with quality/innovation.

British tourists might be more skeptical about quality and innovation, but most people would be comfortable with it if they're truly afraid of renting a car to go to one of the coasts.
 #1494960  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Wow, is AAF/BL/VR ever the dragon slayer!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again; never in my 65+ years of following railroad industry affairs (confession; I was once a "kid railfan") have I seen a passenger train initiative move forth as this. I have to agree that, while Martin and Indian River have valid arguements with "public disruption without public benefit", somebody has the "right friends" somewhere along the political chain.

But let us still acknowledge that the $1.3B, or whatever, must be floated in the private sector capital markets. True, the exemption from Federal Gross Income inclusion will help, but if the in all likelihood "private placement" to wealthy Florida individuals or institutions, they will be subject to Florida's Intangible Asset Tax (that tax has lots of loopholes, but I don't think PAB's is one of such).

I fully expect to have an "all the way and back" joyride come January 27.
 #1494971  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Florida's Intangible Asset Tax (that tax has lots of loopholes, but I don't think PAB's is one of such).
andegold wrote:Gil, I'm pretty sure the Florida Intangibles Tax was repealed about ten years ago
Not surprised, fellow CPA, Mr. Gold.

Any client I had "down below" seemed to lawfully duck it - and I'm not talking about folk residing at a trailer farm in Sebring.
 #1494985  by Tadman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again; never in my 65+ years of following railroad industry affairs have I seen a passenger train initiative move forth as this. ... I fully expect to have an "all the way and back" joyride come January 27.
I think we're finally at a state where it makes sense. Ownership of cars is far more expensive that it's ever been. Roads are busier than they've ever been. And fuel is no longer guaranteed cheap. Can't wait to hear about your trip!
eolesen wrote:
Brightline isn't really a brand, it's a company name. There's a huge difference.
Agreed, the name hasn't been around long enough to mean something. Virgin has, however, and their airline was once know for very good service.
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Not much point in that Mr. Trainguy. Only winners would be the lawyers - and they know how to take care of themselves well enough.
Probably much easier to vote the bums out next year. That money could've been spent on better crossings or a small station.
Bonevalleyrailfan wrote:I posted this elsewhere as well: More news about airlines (probably mostly international) interested in adding flights into MCO because of Brightline having a station at the airport. I know many people disagreed with the decision to have the main Orlando station at the airport.
This just makes good sense. Orlando is so spread out that going downtown wouldn't make the same good sense it makes in Chicago or New York. Further, the airlines don't want to run short hops, it's usually not the profit maker that long hauls are (except the Shuttle). I hope to see more good thinking like this. I fly to Phoenix to visit my family in Tucson, and would love to see a Brightline. It's usually 2x cost to fly into Tucson, and many of the flights are PHX stopovers anyways. The airlines would love something like this, and all that open land between PHX and TUS would make the rail+realestate concept viable. Retirement and winter homes are easy to build on open land.
 #1494993  by Bonevalleyrailfan
 
Brightline is indeed a brand name. The company that operates the train service now, Brightline Holdings LLC, was at one time called All Aboard Florida - Operations LLC and All Aboard Florida - Stations LLC. Back in 2015 they announced the service would be called (or branded) Brightline. For over two years All Aboard Florida LLC was in control of the Brightline service brand. About a year or so ago, they announced the name change of the AAF LLC that controls Brightline.

The Brightline brand name came before the Brightline corporation name.

I will agree that the whole ownership path is now quite convoluted. With the Virgin Trains USA brand appearing there is also a new LLC called Brightline Stock Holdings as part of the future IPO that Fortress Investments will control. The new company Virgin Trains USA, Inc. will be formed from the IPO. Virgin will control its part through the Corvina Holdings company in the BVI.
 #1495044  by eolesen
 
Branding and being a brand are mutually exclusive.

The fact remains that nobody outside of south Florida and the railfan community really recognizes Brightline as a railroad.

Virgin is globally recognized, be it air travel, rail, music, hotels, or telecom. Virgin America was flying up until a little over a year ago, Virgin Atlantic is long recognized as the second largest British airline, and Virgin Australia is the second largest airline in Australia/New Zealand. That gives it a lot more viability as a startup, and you really can't quantify the power of the brand in a SEC filing.
 #1495175  by Jeff Smith
 
Stuart or Fort Pierce? Virgin in process of deciding on Treasure Coast station: https://www.tcpalm.com/story/opinion/co ... 420736002/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1495225  by gokeefe
 
This is the kind of language you use when you're getting ready to throw in the towel:
“We’re disappointed [with the ruling] but we’re discussing with outside counsel our options on how we move forward,” Kate Cotner, an assistant county attorney in Indian River County, told The Bond Buyer on Wednesday.
"Outside counsel" has probably indicated that further litigation will have "further expenses".

Interesting to see the newspaper's tone of coverage shifting as the railroad is now 10-0 in court.

Watch what happens as public opinion slowly shifts and "all these lawsuits" are seen as "waste". Then the real power behind the effort will either have to come out openly or walk away.
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