Training of an Engineer

[gp80mac]

Then there's the remote control operators - get a few day's crash course training, they hand you a box, and viola! instant engineer!

I just thank god that I worked with other RCOers that were real engineers first. They taught me a lot.

[thesov]

Howdy folks; this is my first post over here, but I felt compelled to chime in since I'm currently a student engineer at a passenger railroad which shall remain nameless.

As stated before, the training regiment itself appears for the most part left up to the railroad, but must comply with FRA regulations.

With my employer, the training program basically consists of three phases: first classroom/rules (~8 weeks), then a basic equipment familiarization i.e. "training train" phase (accumulate 20 hours of equipment on both electric and diesel -- ~7 weeks), and lastly on-the-job training where you run revenue trains under supervision of a certified locomotive engineer, learning physical characteristics and train handling. It seems that they're shooting for the overall program duration to be as close to 12 months as they can get it.

[AmTransit]

Engineer training these days is completely insufficient. There are "engineers" with several years seniority that still don't know how to run a train. I find it amazing these guys get over the road day to day without having a major wreck. The class 1's are teaching their new engineers how to set themselves up for catastrophe. Don't stretch brake! I consider stretch braking and power braking as two different methods. I guarantee less fuel will be used stretch braking than using dynamic at many locations management will say otherwise. It seems they scare new engineers into never using the air.. Cause it isn't fuel efficient I suppose. Meanwhile you take a heavy train down a steep grade with a signal in a curve.. Your amazing dynamics fail due to wet rail and a greaser on that curve.. Slide right through that stop signal. Cause no one ever taught you how to run a train or ignore company rules for true safety. More n more safety rules and less and less training is what is happening. Experience is out the window and the lawyers that make up all the new rules decide your fate. Learn from those that know.. Than apply what you need to.. To keep your job and get over the road safely.

AMEN BROTHER!

[COEN77]

Engineer training these days is completely insufficient. There are "engineers" with several years seniority that still don't know how to run a train. I find it amazing these guys get over the road day to day without having a major wreck. The class 1's are teaching their new engineers how to set themselves up for catastrophe. Don't stretch brake! I consider stretch braking and power braking as two different methods. I guarantee less fuel will be used stretch braking than using dynamic at many locations management will say otherwise. It seems they scare new engineers into never using the air.. Cause it isn't fuel efficient I suppose. Meanwhile you take a heavy train down a steep grade with a signal in a curve.. Your amazing dynamics fail due to wet rail and a greaser on that curve.. Slide right through that stop signal. Cause no one ever taught you how to run a train or ignore company rules for true safety. More n more safety rules and less and less training is what is happening. Experience is out the window and the lawyers that make up all the new rules decide your fate. Learn from those that know.. Than apply what you need to.. To keep your job and get over the road safely.

I was allowed by the RFE to teach stretch braking to trainees. I also taught bunch braking which is perfectly legal under the operating rules. They needed to learn methods other than dynamics for controlling speed. The problem these days is the GPS & ERAD in place by the railroads. I used an old method for preventing wheel slipping while ascending a grade with a heavy tonnage train by placing 8-12 lbs of independent for a few seconds which would stop wheel slipping. This worked good if the rail was wet and the sanders were working. One trip got to my room at lodging the RFE called stating the ERAD picked up that I was using independent brake while in power. I told him I haven't a clue what he was talking about. lol. He knew what I was doing he'ld been around for 30 years. It was just a heads up that there are things monitoring train movement.

[LVfastfreight]

I've been working a "runner" job for many years now with older EMD's as the exclusive power. If I went back out on the pools I can't imagine how many e-mails the RFE would be getting from that "ERAD"! I've gotten many a train over hills using sand and the independent to keep the wheel slip in check. Many a times moving inch by inch. Just walking it. I've noticed most the older engines always have the air cut out to the sanders down in the low nose. Must be a popular thing to do with the shop guys when the engines go in for their 92 day inspection. Mostly I work over a commuter RR. The rails get very slippery in the fall. The wheels want to run away n slip at any speed in any notch. You have to go over the road with 15-20 lbs on the independent almost all the time or you will get a penalty when your wheels hit 70.. If you choose to allow them to do that by not using the independent. If you have sanders that work, you probaly still need the independent to keep the wheels from running.

Many places on our Csx main have many little dips and hills. Using a minimum or 10lbs is the best way to take most trains through these spots. With just power in notch 2 or 3. Now when the engines are in dynamic.. They rev up to the equivalent of notch 2 or 3... So I don't see how your using more fuel. COENN.. Your from Richmond I think? Never a problem on the old RF&P..! No dynamics on those engines. I remember those old RF&P engineers not even using the air to stop trains. All independent!

I used to ge alot of 160 car coal trains. Those trains were the biggest pain in the butt to have a kicker when running in the mountains. Hell, they were a pain without a kicker! With the older engines we all know you could feed valve them to set the brakes and most likely avoid the train kicking. Something I always wondered but never tried is with the new wide body's. I wonder if you could change the regulating pressure setting on the computer screen while your moving? I don't think that option will come up on the screen when your moving. Another trick of the trade lost...

[COEN77]

LVfastfreight

I worked the C&O side in Richmond. I remember some oldhead engineers back when I was a locomotive fireman that hated using the air fear of kickers. Yeah, they stop empties even tried loads with the independent. Had one engineer that always burned off the brake shoes he was a good engineer he told me that's what there for. The roundhouse foremen hated when he got locomotives from him. lol. Then we had those that loved stretch braking for everything. I remember first time being shown stretch braking the engineer told me to put some air on it. I went to minimum reduction. He hollered "boy, take a chunk out of it" lol. Found out he loved running it to the limit then it was 15 lbs right off the bat. lol. I finally got with an engineer who I fired with for over 4 years. He was great let me play with the train. He would pull his hat down to take a nap told me to do whatever I wanted just don't get by a stop signal. He told me if you stop a half mile short next time you'll know to take it further. He knew stretch braking, feed valving, and a lot of other tricks. Now those are all lost. You can't feed valve on a computer screen it blocks changing any setting. In Richmond at least on the C&O side engineer trainees aren't assigned to one engineer. They just get called out in sequence. The RFE and I had quite a few discussion that I can't train them properly. If I get one for a trip or two then didn't see them for a month or more they picked up a lot of bad habits in my opinion. I was taught you start a train one car at a time today CSX teaches them not to exceed 2 mph. That wouldn't of worked back when we had cabooses on the train. lol

[MikeEspee]

I was taught how to use the feed/ regulating valve on freight not even 5 years ago now... Best tool EVER. Same thing with grabbing a little jammer to keep the wheels stuck to the rail. You old heads know whats up! I did try the computerized feed valve trick engine light rolling thru the yard a while ago with an early model GE widecab such-and-such with the IFD. Seemed to work but I didn't have the balls to try it in real-time.

[rootsblown]

Kind of sounds like downloading the event recorder can tell if any brake application is being used before and after any wheel slip issues.

[butts260]

Might someone elaborate on stretch braking and power braking? There are several pages on power braking (pp 153 - 155) in the Air Brake Association's "Management of Train Operation and Train Handling" fourth
eEdition but stretch braking seems not to be described explicitly. I'm a retired electrical engineer and totally ignorant of train handling, so please be tolerant . . .

[COEN77]

Might someone elaborate on stretch braking and power braking? There are several pages on power braking (pp 153 - 155) in the Air Brake Association's "Management of Train Operation and Train Handling" fourth
eEdition but stretch braking seems not to be described explicitly. I'm a retired electrical engineer and totally ignorant of train handling, so please be tolerant . . .

Power braking is stretch braking. It's use is discouraged because of fuel conservation. It's applying the train brakes while under power. To use it correctly the locomotives throttle should be in at least 5th-6th notch to keep the train stretched tight. Once the brakes are applied and the train starts slowing then the throttle can be notched down. If the train isn't stretched tight on a brake application of course that could cause train separation with breaking knuckles or even tearing out a drawhead.

One must also take into consideration locomotives, train size, grades, curves, weather conditions ect...all are a factor in the proper utilization of power braking.

[butts260]

Power braking may be discouraged, but what is the alternative? If the braking characteristics of the cars are as variable as I would think, how else can the engineer safely control the consist? Isn't management being penny-wise and pound foolish trying to save some fuel (and brake shoes) at the potential expense of lost time, coupler knuckles and draft gear as well as possible derailments?

[Ironman]

The company I work for allows power braking on certain subdivisions. Mainly this applies to the mountain subs, or "heavy grade" territory. This is mainly because the engines themselves are far more advanced.

For example, you can power brake over the Berkshires in MA, but not on the water level route in NY although it's the same RR. In fact the senior RFE in my area wants engineer trainees to be taught how to power brake. Going even futher, you are trained to do what ever you have to do to get a train over the road safely, no matter what territory you are on. And every one can still power brake up to like the 2nd notch and not get a hit. In other words, you can be going 10 MPH and put minimum on, and drag it. That's how you get into yards and what not.

Frankly, I'm so tried of this theme on this board, and others. The old stories are great, but people like me are out here today. I can say with no doubt that we are safer and more professional than they were 25- 30 years ago.

[COEN77]

Power braking may be discouraged, but what is the alternative? If the braking characteristics of the cars are as variable as I would think, how else can the engineer safely control the consist? Isn't management being penny-wise and pound foolish trying to save some fuel (and brake shoes) at the potential expense of lost time, coupler knuckles and draft gear as well as possible derailments?

In most situations dynamic brakes can do the job to reduce speed ect.... On decending grades utilizing bunch braking using the dynamics an applying a train brake application works just as well. Which after power/stretch braking became an issue bunch braking is what I used most of the time. There are a lot of tricks which can be used that if done correctly doesn't cause time loss. By using the train itself making a throttle reduction in the curves will slow the train to avoid an increase in speed this works in situations where a train might gain 5-10 mph. Overtime when a person completely knows the territory they should be able to compensate without having to go through the motions of bunching and stretching a train for just speed control.

[COEN77]

.

Frankly, I'm so tried of this theme on this board, and others. The old stories are great, but people like me are out here today. I can say with no doubt that we are safer and more professional than they were 25- 30 years ago.

That's a heavy statement. All I can say is I forgot more about railroading then you'll ever know. People today just go through the motions. Do they really know why? When I got promoted to locomotive engineer it was a difficult task. We didn't have multiple choice questions. Our operating rules was standing in front of a panel of three Road Foreman grilled for hours getting questions thrown at us. The LOTH exam was hand written not multiple choice. A person didn't even know for up to a week if they passed. Not like these pod test they give these days. Those who taught me came from the steam era they were great at their jobs. You're more professional and safer? I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

[Ironman]

There are still plenty of guys out here with 30 years or more that new hires learn from, and I never said I know more about railroading than you do. You had 30+ years and I only have 7. I would hope that you know more than me. Of course, the key word is has. Alot of your knowledge is useless out here today, and I don't mean to offend by saying this. It's just the truth.

You are talking to me about steam engines when the jobs in my yard are run by one counductor on the ground doing everything with a box strapped to his chest controlling a remote engine. You are talking about power braking like it's the holy grail, when in fact on most subdivisions it's just not necessary today. The old school engineers want to show their "skill" by running hot in to an absolute signal, and then throw on the air at the last minute while still in the 8th notch, or drag the train thruogh a sag without notching off. They basically think they are wasting time by having to use the dynamic brake. Forgetting, of course, that if you get by that signal today, you're on the street for at least 60 days. You also get in trouble for exceeding the speed limit. I know in your day all that would likely be swept under the rug. Now they have to notch off to go into dynamic, poor them.

I just saw the total switching related deaths per year for the past 35 years chart, so I can say for sure we are safer today.

Going by butts260's post, some people are believing some of the incorrect infomation on this thread. The fact of the matter is engineer trainiees are taught power braking and many other skills on my part of the railroad. They may or may not be able to use those skills on certain subdivisions in normal operations.

The training lasts about a year, class room alone is a month in Atlanta. It's not done on the pods like you say. And everyone has at least 5 years on the ground before they even go to Atlanta on my division now. My home terminal takes 7 years on the ground, at the least, and now any yard conductor is already running an engine. Doing the same thing it took up to 5 guys to do.

So just give me a break with the new RR's don't know what they are doing thing, and get your facts straight.