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  • Steam generators in tenders?

  • Discussion of the CNJ (aka the Jersey Central) and predecessors Elizabethtown and Somerville, and Somerville and Easton, for the period 1831 to its inclusion in ConRail in 1976. The historical society site is here: http://www.jcrhs.org/
Discussion of the CNJ (aka the Jersey Central) and predecessors Elizabethtown and Somerville, and Somerville and Easton, for the period 1831 to its inclusion in ConRail in 1976. The historical society site is here: http://www.jcrhs.org/

Moderator: CAR_FLOATER

 #482620  by bellstbarn
 
Last night, there was an excellent presentation of 16mm movies at the Long Island - Sunrise Trail chapter of the NRHS, including maybe ten minutes of action between Elizabeth, Cranford, and Bound Brook. Twice, the view showed a passenger train with a full-sized steam locomotive and tender moving at speed. The locomotive spewed black smoke, but at the rear of the tender, steam was puffing out of a vent. An explanation given was that was a steam generator for heating the coaches. However, I think I heard someone add that the steam generator also made electricity for lights. The locomotive could have been on a Reading express, but I am fairly certain it was CNJ. Definitely not a camel-back. If I understand it, a steam generator in a diesel or steam passenger locomotive somewhat resembles a home burner: water coils around a furnace. Did this also power a turbine generating voltage for lighting?
Thanks.
Joe McMahon
 #482802  by Ken W2KB
 
bellstbarn wrote:Last night, there was an excellent presentation of 16mm movies at the Long Island - Sunrise Trail chapter of the NRHS, including maybe ten minutes of action between Elizabeth, Cranford, and Bound Brook. Twice, the view showed a passenger train with a full-sized steam locomotive and tender moving at speed. The locomotive spewed black smoke, but at the rear of the tender, steam was puffing out of a vent. An explanation given was that was a steam generator for heating the coaches. However, I think I heard someone add that the steam generator also made electricity for lights. The locomotive could have been on a Reading express, but I am fairly certain it was CNJ. Definitely not a camel-back. If I understand it, a steam generator in a diesel or steam passenger locomotive somewhat resembles a home burner: water coils around a furnace. Did this also power a turbine generating voltage for lighting?
Thanks.
Joe McMahon
To my knowledge, the steam would go directly to the coaches from the loco boiler. No need for a heat exchanger. It is possible that an electric generator was mounted at the rear of the tender using the steam line going to the coaches for a steam source.

 #482810  by metman499
 
It was an electric generator. One is shown briefly in action in Big Little Railroad.
 #482894  by Steam man
 
To my knowledge, the steam would go directly to the coaches from the loco boiler.
Yes, but through a pressure reducing regulator mounted on the locomotive. In the switch over from steam power to diesel there would be a boiler on the diesel to supply steam for heating. As well electric locomotives such as the GG-1 had steam heating boilers to do the same. This made it simple to keep the equipment interchangable in between locomotive types.

Each car had a heat exchangers that were very similar to a household baseboard heating radiator and normally ran the length of the car along the floor on the outside coach wall. The steam trainline was connected at each end by a very sturdy built connection that was made of pipe with knuckle type flex devices to allow for movement. At the rear of the train you would see a steam telltale trailing from the trainline, this was to drain the condensate from the line as it was a total loss system. On the big name trains,many times you could board ahead of time to get settled in and the cars would be heated by a connection to the terminal powerhouse to prvicde heat before the engine would back down on her train. This was especilly true with the railroads that had overnight sleeping car service with late day departure times.

Later the advent of HEP and electric car heating eliminated the steam heating systems in most passenger equipment.This is one of the reason you see mainline steam excursion with a diesel in the consist to supply HEP in the absence of a dedicated power car.There are still a few tourist railroads that have rolling stock equipped with steam heating system,with New Hope and Ivyland coming to mind.
It is possible that an electric generator was mounted at the rear of the tender using the steam line going to the coaches for a steam source.
The tender mounted auxilary turobo-generator supplied electric to the batteries for lighting in the coaches. Each car had a generator slung mounted underneath with a drive belt to one of the truck axles which then would supply charging voltage to the battery banks. But due to the stop and go nature of the CNJ's commuter runs,the batteries wouldn't always get fully charged in between stations.

Fix: the auxilary generator . The generator would run off a steam line at boiler pressure much the same as the generator for the locomotive electrical system. There was a train line that would be connected between the coaches supplying charging voltage. Some other railroads used a larger or dual turbo generators for the locomotive electrical system and supplied train line voltage from them. The old electrical systems were 32 volts or 64 volts. HEP power supplied now is 480vac 3 phase for heating and A/c with lighting systems on 120vac panels in each car.

Help any??

 #482916  by bellstbarn
 
Thanks for the great explanation, Mr. Avis. You explained another puzzle of mine, namely how the lights on commuter trains stayed lit at night with only sporadic axle-generated power. On the New Haven RR, we would ride behind steam or diesel from Winsted to Bridgeport, where an electric locomotive would replace the steam or diesel. On that run, the railroad allowed plenty of time for the switch, and the battery in the coach might run down during the interim, dimming our lights gradually. I wonder whether the NYNH&H had an electric power line through from locomotive to coaches as the CNJ did.

 #484652  by timz
 
bellstbarn wrote:I wonder whether the NYNH&H had an electric power line through from locomotive to coaches as the CNJ did.
Suspect not. Anybody find a mention of NH locomotives with HEP generators?

 #484656  by pennsy
 
Hi,

The New Haven, like the PRR, also produced steam for heating the cars in the winter time. So, the electric engines, like the GG-1 took on a supply of water, and fuel oil, to generate steam. By the way, I have also heard that the streamlined passenger cars were equipped to take the steam, in the summertime, and run air conditioners on board.

 #484801  by Steam man
 
For the benefit of those who might not know what is being discussed here, I found a picture of a CNJ engine with the auxilary turbo-generator mounted on the rear deck of the tender. Sorry about the quality of the picture,but there aren't too many showing the B end of these engines. The generator is highlighted inside the red oval. This is engine #785 (4-6-0 L-8/T-40 class,the big kahuna of the CNJ ten wheelers at 40,000lb T.E.) at an undisclosed location and unknown date (Aldene perhaps??) Picture from NE Railfan taken by Bud Laws. Note the truck mounted pilot which was wheel protection for running in reverse which fits in with a commuter type operation.

Image
Last edited by Steam man on Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #484841  by Ken W2KB
 
Thanks for that. Very interesting. Yes, Aldene/Cranford is likely, that does look like the Parkway overpass in the photo. Or if not, then the NJ Turnpike extension in Jersey City.
Last edited by Ken W2KB on Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #484851  by bellstbarn
 
Steam Man, what a superb photo of 785 and explanation! Many thanks. One of my memories of camelbacks is the time Dad brought me to ride the shuttle from Communipaw to West Side Avenue (or thereabouts) after a fire had cut through service to Newark. It was a coach and a camelback in (let's call it) push-pull service, the conductor giving signals from the vestibule.
Joe