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  • LV main in New York State

  • Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.
Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

Moderator: scottychaos

 #548374  by Otto Vondrak
 
When was the LV single-tracked? After the installation of CTC in 1970?

When was the LV main ripped up in New York? When did the Victor-Shortsville segment become an isolated section (well, isolated from the rest of the LV main)? When was it connected to the NYC at Shortsville?

-otto-
 #548399  by Lehighton_Man
 
I dont know its entirety, but i guess i'll try to answer.
As for single tracking, im sure TB diamond would know that.
When ripped up, i think it was 1977 or 1978? i remember reading somewhere that the tracks sat dormant for a long time like for a year before Conrail removed them, but dont quote me on that, i could be wrong. I think the Victor-Shortsville segiment wasnt isolated for very long, since OCIDA(Ontario County Industrial Development Agency){did i get that right?} took action and purchased that segiment and connected it like almost immediately to the existing ex NYC then Conrail line. ONCT was started in the early 80's late 70s im guessing.
Dont hold me evident for any of this, this is just based off of previous readings.
Cheers.
Sean
 #548420  by Otto Vondrak
 
Sean,

From what I understand, there was a five-year moritorium on ripping up any tracks after Conrail was formed. During those five years, bidders were sought for lines to be ripped up, branches were evaluated for profitability, etc. From what I understand, the LV main was intact west of Sayre until at least 1981. Maybe I'm getting my data crossed again.

-otto-
 #548448  by Lehighton_Man
 
Yes, anything north of Sayre would've been kept in for sometime, one of which being the Van etten Area, where the freightmain diverged off. Im sure that was kept together until later years, where today the passenger main is still serviced.
Who knows.
lol
Cheers.
Sean
 #548472  by TB Diamond
 
Otto:

Reference your question about single-tracking (installation of CTC) of the Lehigh Valley Railroad MT. Assumption is made that you refer to the MT in NYS, State Line-Buffalo (Tifft Jct.) via the Seneca Freight Bypass? Going by that assumption here is the sequence:

State Line-Van Etten Jct. effective 16 March 1964
Van Etten Jct.-Cayuta effective 14 July 1964
Hinman-Gilbert effective 18 December 1964
Geneva Jct.-Kendaia effective 07 Septmeber 1965
Seneca-Geneva effective 21 September 1965
Batavia-Wyoming effective 05 July 1967
P&L Jct.-Batavia effective 24 June 1969
P&L Jct.-Rush effective 07 July 1970
Rush-W. Manchester effective 21 March 1972

Prior to the installation of CTC the LVRR MT was operated under Rule 251 (ABS) with 2 MT, each with an assigned direction of movement. Movement of a train or engine was authorized by train order. After CTC there was one MT of no assigned direction of movement with passing sidings between control points. Movement of a train or engine was authorized by signal indication.

Reference your query on the removal of the LVRR MT in NYS:

MP 371.0-Batavia: Work began in late 1977. A&K truck on Genesee River bridge removing rail on 16 December 1977. Work continued through the summer of 1978.

Van Etten Jct.-Odessa removed during the summer of 1978.

Batavia-Depew: Last trip by ConRail Buffalo-Batavia was on 29 June 1978. I believe that this segment was removed later that year or by 1979, but have no proof. The tracks remained extant at Niagara Jct. as late as 10 June 1983.

Ordnance Int.-Canfield removal began in August, 1978. First CWR empty operated from Geneva to Canfield on 21 August 1978 w/CR #8022. The first load of CWR came back to Geneva on 31 August, 1978, pulled by a Alco RS3m.

Reference your query on the Victor-Shortsville segment becoming isolated:

Construction of the connection between the former NYC Auburn branch and the former LVRR MT at Victor began in late 1977 and was completed in mid-1978. The first e/b CR local utilized the new connection on 27 June 1978. After that date the former LVRR MT Shortsville-Geneva went o/s and was subsequently removed. Construction of the connection between the former NYC Auburn branch and the former LVRR MT near Shortsville began during the summer of 1978 and was completed in early 1979. After completion of this connection the former NYC Auburn branch Canandaigua-Victor was abandoned and subsequently removed (I believe in 1980).

Lehighton:

ONCT began operations on 01 October 1979.
 #548562  by BR&P
 
More misinformation.

The tracks were not removed by Conrail. Portions of the LV which were not conveyed to Conrail remained the property of the LV Estate.

The ONCT trackage was never owned by the Economic Development Agency. For the first few years it was owned by the LV Estate. Ontario County (NOT the IDA) purchased the line in the early '80s, a few years after ONCT began operations.

And because the former LV trackage which later became ONCT was served over the LV from Geneva until the connection could be built, the line was not isolated at all.
 #548571  by TB Diamond
 
BR&P:

If recall is correct, the sequence went like this:

01 April 1976-L/June 1978: Manchester/Victor served via former LVRR MT Geneva Jct.-MP 371.0

L/June 1978-E/1979: Victor/Manchester served via former NYC Auburn branch Canandagua-Victor and new connection in Victor to former LVRR MT. Former LVRR MT Geneva Jct.-Shortsville o/s and subsequently abandoned/removed.

E/1979-present: Manchester/Victor served via new connection near Shortsville between former NYC Auburn branch and former LVRR MT. Former NYC Auburn branch Canandaigua-Victor abandoned and subsequently removed.

I think what Otto meant by Manchester-Victor being isolated was that it was isolated from the remainder of the former LVRR r/o/w and not isolated from the U.S. railroad infrastructure in general. Actually, Victor-Manchester was technically isolated from the remainder of the LVRR plant effective 01 April 1976.
 #548605  by Lehighton_Man
 
Ok, thanks for the Clear up BR&P i remember reading that the ONCT started up very early after the LV died.
Speaking of Victor, anybody know of any pictures showing the Valley in its Prime through Victor and points north? I have seen many Online Imagry, and a little of what is in the LVRRHS back room.
Thanks.
Sean
 #548611  by BR&P
 
In the sense of being isolated from the rest of the LV, I'd say that happened with the actual removal of the trackage west and east of the ONCT, which TB Diamond has provided - thanks. I missed that part and interpreted it as isolated from the general system - sorry!

From April 1, 1976 to September 30, 1979, the future ONCT was operated by - but not OWNED by - Conrail. They were paid to provide service until a longer-term solution was arrived at - in this case, ONCT.

I recall TBD and myself photographing a westbound CR plow extra after a fairly heavy snowfall one day. Not really enough snow to REQUIRE a plow, but deep enough that it was actually plowing snow. Power was an ex-PC or NH RS-11 IIRC.
 #548757  by BR&P
 
Sorry - some of us old fartz have barely learned how to drive a mouse. The skills of getting a photo onto the computer are beyond me. Not to mention I'd have to find which box in the basement it's in. Maybe TBD has one he can provide from that day.
 #548879  by Mike Stellpflug
 
I hate to admit it, but my first "real" job was working for A&K ripping up the old LV from the Genesse River out to the east side of Roch.Jct. The work started in the winter of 1977 (January). There was a speed swing that could hi-rail and pull gondola's, which were picked up and dropped off at RJ. I think I have some old pics of the operation buried somewhere in my collection. We worked between Rush and West Rush picking up the old abandoned 2nd track whch was still in place after the single tracking. I just remember being really cold out there picking up and stacking base plates, spikes and joints. The gang consisted of a couple full time guys and a bunch of part timers like myself who worked for a few hours a day after school. That spring involved more removal of the abandoned 2nd track out in Mendon and west to the Genessee River trestle. I quit after that and did'nt really pay too much attention to when the main was actually removed.
 #548953  by TB Diamond
 
BR&P:

Will go through my slide files tomorrow and find the number of the unit shoving that snowplow extra. If recall is correct I believe that it was a high nose ex-PC Alco RS11. For myself, I remain stuck in those thrilling days of Kodak KR 135-36. Recently found out that slides can now be scanned electronically in order to make prints. This will bring a chuckle to the younger crowd out there.

Mike S.:

Great information on the scrapping of the LVRR. I photographed the A&K truck crane on the Genesee River bridge on 16 Dec. 1977. Very cold afternoon, around zero f if memory serves. Also caught you folks loading gons with rail at Rochester Jct. in Jan. 1978 and picking up the MT rail just east of RJ that following summer.

Ever hear about a gon of rail getting away at RJ and rolling towards Rush?
 #548992  by lvrr325
 
There's a picture of one of the A&K trucks on the Genesee River bridge in a Trains magazine, I want to say like March 1978 but it could be anywhere from mid-77 to 12-78.

Odessa-Kendaia come out sooner than Odessa-Van Etten? Some early CR maps and show subsidized service up the main for a year or two to Odessa or close to it, I forget what customer was up there, it's been discussed here before.
 #549205  by Mike Stellpflug
 
TB Diamond wrote:BR&P:

Mike S.:

Great information on the scrapping of the LVRR. I photographed the A&K truck crane on the Genesee River bridge on 16 Dec. 1977. Very cold afternoon, around zero f if memory serves. Also caught you folks loading gons with rail at Rochester Jct. in Jan. 1978 and picking up the MT rail just east of RJ that following summer.

Ever hear about a gon of rail getting away at RJ and rolling towards Rush?

Now that my memory has been jogged, I do recall that incident.