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  • Military train on the EC&N??

  • Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.
Discussion related to the Lehigh Valley Railroad and predecessors for the period 1846-1976. Originally incorporated as the Delaware, Lehigh, Schuylkill and Susquehanna Railroad Company.

Moderator: scottychaos

 #436353  by lvrr325
 
One of the LV email lists got a message forwarded in from a gentleman who lives in Etna who says he remembers "as a young boy, during the early 1940's of seeing flat bed train cars loaded with military equipment... jeeps, tanks, and other military equipment."

Sounds like your typical military train to me.

By that date, the line only went as far south/west as East Ithaca, were it 1938 or earlier I suppose such a train could have joined the freight bypass at Van Etten and headed up to the Seneca Depot. But that wasn't possible during WWII.

Now there is a National Guard Armory today, they used to have the train shows there, and it's not very far from the abandoned ROW of the branch - but it wouldn't appear to me to have been there in the 1940s, it seems like a newer facility. But perhaps that replaces an earlier armory closer to the city? Certainly Syracuse and Rochester both have an old Armory downtown. It's the only destination (or origin) for such a train that I can imagine.

But even there, unless the thing was right on top of the branch it seems odd they'd run it out that way and not go down the hill and load it up to go out on the mainline, or come in that way and vice versa. Unless the idea was to confuse/avoid spies.

Figured I'd cross post here and see if anyone can shed some light on this -

 #436369  by scottychaos
 
Etna! that is strange..I cant think of a reason a military train would be running to or from Cornell university! weird..

did a google search, and an armory shows up on the west side of Cornell:

http://tinyurl.com/38dmau

tracks dont go directy to it though..

cant find anymore about it right now..but thats the only thing that makes sense, that the train was to or from an armory in Ithaca.

Was there any military training at Cornell during WWII??
although I cant imagine they would take a train load of militray equipment to a college for training..unless it was a major training facility.
but thats seems unlikely.

Scot

 #436412  by CAR_FLOATER
 
Scot -

Where was Sampson Naval Base in relation to Cornell?

Were there any other Army Induction camps up there (like Camp Kilmer was here in NJ?)

Just a thought......

RAH

 #436424  by scottychaos
 
CAR_FLOATER wrote:Scot -

Where was Sampson Naval Base in relation to Cornell?

Were there any other Army Induction camps up there (like Camp Kilmer was here in NJ?)

Just a thought......

RAH
Sampson Naval base and the Seneca Army Depot were both along the "freight main" between Van Etten and Geneva..

this military train in Etna wouldnt be going to or from either..
well..I suppose in theory it could be going to or from either! but it still doesnt make any sense why the train would be in Etna..because at that time Etna was on a branch line (the former EC&N) than dead-ended at East Ithaca..hence the mystery.

Scot
 #436435  by scharnhorst
 
lvrr325 wrote:One of the LV email lists got a message forwarded in from a gentleman who lives in Etna who says he remembers "as a young boy, during the early 1940's of seeing flat bed train cars loaded with military equipment... jeeps, tanks, and other military equipment."

Sounds like your typical military train to me.

By that date, the line only went as far south/west as East Ithaca, were it 1938 or earlier I suppose such a train could have joined the freight bypass at Van Etten and headed up to the Seneca Depot. But that wasn't possible during WWII.

Now there is a National Guard Armory today, they used to have the train shows there, and it's not very far from the abandoned ROW of the branch - but it wouldn't appear to me to have been there in the 1940s, it seems like a newer facility. But perhaps that replaces an earlier armory closer to the city? Certainly Syracuse and Rochester both have an old Armory downtown. It's the only destination (or origin) for such a train that I can imagine.

But even there, unless the thing was right on top of the branch it seems odd they'd run it out that way and not go down the hill and load it up to go out on the mainline, or come in that way and vice versa. Unless the idea was to confuse/avoid spies.

Figured I'd cross post here and see if anyone can shed some light on this -
The Senaca Army Depot was built in 1941 before that it was all farm land that wwas taken away from the people there in lou of back taxes in the 1930's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot
 #436572  by lvrr325
 
scharnhorst wrote:
The Senaca Army Depot was built in 1941 before that it was all farm land that wwas taken away from the people there in lou of back taxes in the 1930's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot
I don't understand what that has to do with the topic of this thread?


Incedentally, depending on the size of that armory and how those would have worked at the time, that might well be the answer. Thing is, there's no way to know if this was a long train, or if it was just say 5 or 10 cars of stuff. Back then I would imagine they'd have been 40' flat cars, with one tank or two jeeps/other smaller vehicles per car. And even a train with 5 loads would have looked pretty huge, especially to a little kid living along a dead-end branch line.
 #436607  by scottychaos
 
lvrr325 wrote:
scharnhorst wrote:
The Senaca Army Depot was built in 1941 before that it was all farm land that wwas taken away from the people there in lou of back taxes in the 1930's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Army_Depot
I don't understand what that has to do with the topic of this thread?

a question was asked if Samson Naval base might have anything to do with the mystery train in Etna..I answered with info about the location of Sampson and Seneca Army Depot, thats how the depot got involved in this thread! ;)

Scot

 #436665  by lvrr325
 
In fact, I mentioned the Depot in my first post as well. But as noted there's no direct rail connection between the two points after 1938 (and even the one that did exist was rather circuitous.

 #436713  by TB Diamond
 
On the campus of Cornell University in Ithaca, NY there was a large New York State National Guard Armory, constructed 1914-1918. This building is still extant, presently known as Barton Hall. The National Guard turned the building over to Cornell in 1980. Between 1918 and about 1950 this armory was utilized as a centralized training facility for many NG units in Upstate New York. Therefore, military equipment being shipped to this facility during WW II is not out of the question. Info from the book NEW YORK'S HISTORIC ARMORIES by Nancy L. Todd.

Scot:

Lehigh Valley Railroad Elmira & Cortland branch Ithaca-Spencer, 22 miles, abandoned in 1935, not 1940.

 #436773  by johnpbarlow
 
Here's a little more info re: Barton Hall's history from Wikipedia. In WWI, it was an airplane hanger and as indicated earlier, an armory during WWII. Barton Hall was about 0.5 miles from the LV/EC&N track at the Cornell steam plant that received coal until the '70s, I believe. I wondering if at one time there was a spur to Barton Hall? Having posed that, the terrain formed by the upstream portion of Cascadilla Gorge would likely have made such a spur impractical.

Ironically, in the '70s users of this former facility was the Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barton_Hall
Last edited by johnpbarlow on Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #436786  by scottychaos
 
TB Diamond wrote:On the campus of Cornell University in Ithaca, NY there was a large New York State National Guard Armory, constructed 1914-1918. This building is still extant, presently known as Barton Hall. The National Guard turned the building over to Cornell in 1980. Between 1918 and about 1950 this armory was utilized as a centralized training facility for many NG units in Upstate New York. Therefore, military equipment being shipped to this facility during WW II is not out of the question. Info from the book NEW YORK'S HISTORIC ARMORIES by Nancy L. Todd.

Scot:

Lehigh Valley Railroad Elmira & Cortland branch Ithaca-Spencer, 22 miles, abandoned in 1935, not 1940.
thanks TB!
well that probably solves the mystery then! :P
this military train was clearly going to or from Cornell..

(I never said the branch was abandoned in 1940! ;) but thanks for the date!)

Scot

 #436831  by TB Diamond
 
Scot:

I stand corrected. Your note OOS 1940 may have lead one to believe that this was the date the trackage was abandoned. Yes, Ithaca-Spencer was definitely OOS in 1940, and removed, as well.

 #437065  by TB Diamond
 
Another possible reason for a train load of military gear being delivered to Cornell in the early 1940s: During WWII there was a vary large ROTC program ongoing at the university.

 #438709  by bwparker1
 
FWIW... The dead concert at Barton Hall on May 8, 1977 is widely regarded by "heads" as one of the best, if not the best Grateful Dead show ever. The cover group Dark Star Orchestra, recently did a reply this spring of the famous concert at the State Theater in downtown Ithaca...

Back to LV trains in Ithaca, I can't add much to the discussion, but I can tell you I have hiked various portions of the LV that have been turned into a trail, they area a couple different segments, with odd ball spikes, plates and ties still lying around the ROW.

- Brooks