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  • G&W to acquire P&W

  • Topics relating to the operation of the P&W Railroad, which is a subsidiary of Genesee and Wyoming. Regional freight railroad based in Worcester and operating in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York.
    Official Website
Topics relating to the operation of the P&W Railroad, which is a subsidiary of Genesee and Wyoming. Regional freight railroad based in Worcester and operating in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York.
Official Website

Moderator: MEC407

 #1397238  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Ridgefielder wrote:Wonder if this could lead to one of the two routes along the Thames between Norwich and New London being abandoned. Way back in the day there was an interchange track between the New Haven and Central Vermont in downtown Norwich, but I think that was wiped out in the floods of '55, if not before.
No way. P&W only has one on-line customer south of downtown Norwich, but it's a MASSIVE one: Dow Chemical in Ledyard. P&W's also got the wye track in Groton for the short eastbound jaunt they have to make to serve the sizable Tilcon quarry next to Groton-New London Airport, whereas that would take a convoluted backup move through New London station to do via NECR (which would drive Amtrak crazy). I can easily New Haven loads to/from Canada and to/from Worcester being split and combined in Willimantic and run more often via NECR instead dragging everything to Worcester to be sent back out to NHV. Would be more convenient as relief for Worcester's problematic yard space crunch, as Willimantic is under-capacity and has derelict tracks buried in the trees that could be replaced to re-expand the yard for sorting. Using NECR also avoids the Thames River lift bridge on the NEC and skips the New London platforms. But whether and how often the New Haven service patterns go via NECR is entirely dependent on Tilcon-Groton, and whether they're sending stone westbound that day. I don't know what division of labor is between the mid-afternoon daily and the overnight stone train re: that Tilcon location when the stone train is in season. Could be that both routes are a mix/match for New Haven depending on what the day's customer itinerary is.

Overall, though, NECR becomes the more important route south of Plainfield/Willimantic because it has more customers and Port of New London, while other than Dow and the customers between Norwich and Plainfield P&W is diminished because there's nothing NEC-bound that technically can't run via NECR. Probably means CDOT's list of priority freight projects changes significantly: bringing NECR from 17' to 19'6" south of Willimantic is now the only clearance project that matters; the same is no longer necessary south of Plainfield. And since south-of-Plainfield is already 286K there's very little else other than state-of-repair that needs to be spent on it. Makes CDOT's grant applications much easier to prioritize.


I suppose IF Dow closed and nothing replaced it, IF the tracks into Port of New London had an eastbound connection to the NEC inclined up to hook in next to the bridge, and IF multiple parties had so much money burning hole in pockets to re-create the old Thames River crossing in Norwich...then I could possibly see a scenario where Norwich-Groton is ruled expendable. In which case a "back to the future" re-creation of the original 19th century Norwich line split and singular west-side mainline offers zero loss of mobility to any destination and 100% butt-covering at the century level for preserving New London-Worcester passenger considerations. South of Norwich the east side of the river is barren while the density pockets hug the west side, and the sub base doesn't even have a siding anymore it's been so many years since they were served. But that's a lot of IF's and a lot of bridge construction $$$ to ever make Norwich-Groton expendable. It's not likely to happen, and both sides of the river south of Norwich will continue to get daily use even if NECR now is the more strategic of the two flanks.
 #1397246  by CN9634
 
Cowford wrote:Granted, this will somewhat change the competitive landscape and cause some traffic shifts... but some of this speculation is over the top. A lot of traffic is simply not very "route flexible", competing roads (and suppliers, in the case where you're talking source substitution) would likely have effective response options, and the northern route ain't exactly the BNSF Chicago-LA racetrack. Mr Barlow's comments are much more on-point, IMHO.
Naturally based on my posts, I respectfully disagree with this...I do think its a powerplay for CN (especially based on some of the chatter I've been hearing)

But in the left field department, one of the JOC anaylsts is having a field day putting together a potential with this acquisition with the Port of Portland, Maine.... Literally can't make that one up. The best part is, no mention whatsoever of Pan Am. I wonder if he was thinking since SLR runs to Portland that somehow there is a direct connection there? I could maybe see some kind of Pan Am - P&W service to reach NYC for the water traffic, but this seems far fetched.

http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/shor ... 60815.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1397279  by Ridgefielder
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Overall, though, NECR becomes the more important route south of Plainfield/Willimantic because it has more customers and Port of New London, while other than Dow and the customers between Norwich and Plainfield P&W is diminished because there's nothing NEC-bound that technically can't run via NECR. Probably means CDOT's list of priority freight projects changes significantly: bringing NECR from 17' to 19'6" south of Willimantic is now the only clearance project that matters; the same is no longer necessary south of Plainfield. And since south-of-Plainfield is already 286K there's very little else other than state-of-repair that needs to be spent on it.
Sounds like the old Providence Line between Plainfield and Willimantic is going to be seeing more traffic than it has in a long, long time- possibly since the end of the New Haven.
 #1397290  by Noel Weaver
 
The line between Providence and Willimantic did not have very much traffic for a long time during the NHRR days. The New Haven actually abandoned the portion between Washington and Plainfield even before the Penn Central took over. Today you never know when a rather obsure branch will suddenly become rather busy. Willimantic waa once very, very busy, it will never reach the level of traffic of say 1920 but at least some of the rails will collect a lot less rust.
Noel Weaver
 #1397314  by YamaOfParadise
 
Wow, I miss checking up on here for a day and something this seismic shifts!

Anyways, a couple idle thoughts: I'm curious how this'll affect traffic on the Gardiner Branch, now that the combined system is bumping elbows with PAR/PAS more. In theory you could roll freight through over the B&M to Millers Falls, and then up NECR, but I don't particularly think PAS would be that open to that. At any rate, it does allow for more places for whatever interchange happens between them, for anything that isn't going directly to Worcester/Providence. (Which I do actually believe is a lot of it, so maybe not that much will change. I believe the unit trains to Providence are the main traffic coming over the Gardiner Branch?) The other immediate thought I had was about how it'll affect the upper Valley Line+Middletown Cluster, since you can keep it all on the G&W system when loads come from Hartford. Probably not much difference here, either.

And then there's how this'll affect the BSCR's endeavors!
 #1397332  by Dick H
 
Is there any chance the STB would attach major conditions for the approval of the sale?
How about any of the adjoining railroads filing objections? Thanks...
 #1397336  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Noel Weaver wrote:The line between Providence and Willimantic did not have very much traffic for a long time during the NHRR days. The New Haven actually abandoned the portion between Washington and Plainfield even before the Penn Central took over. Today you never know when a rather obsure branch will suddenly become rather busy. Willimantic waa once very, very busy, it will never reach the level of traffic of say 1920 but at least some of the rails will collect a lot less rust.
Noel Weaver
Thankfully the Willi Branch got a full end-to-end rehab about 8 years ago by CDOT for Class 3/40 MPH, 286K, and 19'6" clearances in prep for the NECR/P&W/VRS "Canadian Gateway" loose partnership. It was somewhat criticized at the time for being a potential overreach if the partners lacked coordination to generate the traffic or keep the partnership organized coherently...but now it's looking like a pretty wise investment since that's now effectively 'the' mainline and it's out-of-box ready to receive all traffic from the combined RR.
 #1397339  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
YamaOfParadise wrote:Wow, I miss checking up on here for a day and something this seismic shifts!

Anyways, a couple idle thoughts: I'm curious how this'll affect traffic on the Gardiner Branch, now that the combined system is bumping elbows with PAR/PAS more. In theory you could roll freight through over the B&M to Millers Falls, and then up NECR, but I don't particularly think PAS would be that open to that. At any rate, it does allow for more places for whatever interchange happens between them, for anything that isn't going directly to Worcester/Providence. (Which I do actually believe is a lot of it, so maybe not that much will change. I believe the unit trains to Providence are the main traffic coming over the Gardiner Branch?) The other immediate thought I had was about how it'll affect the upper Valley Line+Middletown Cluster, since you can keep it all on the G&W system when loads come from Hartford. Probably not much difference here, either.

And then there's how this'll affect the BSCR's endeavors!
Gardner Branch is an open question because that's 25 very long miles to have to maintain for just one interchange train per day. And NS probably isn't keen when it ultimately takes over 100% of the Patriot Corridor on maintaining a separate interchange yard that close to Ayer when the autoracks have to get taken to/from Ayer anyway. I suspect there'll be consolidation moves by both companies to relocate Gardner interchange, close the yard on the NS side, and close the branch on the P&W side. The question is where. Millers Falls has very little storage (Gardner has very little storage for the racks, so you have to at least have Gardner-or-better space). Bellows Falls has too little storage because the smallish yard is VRS's. White River Junction is too far away. East Deerfield or Hill Yard in Ayer would be ideal from NS's standpoint, but overhead rights would have to be negotiated and that's probably not going to happen as long as PAR is still in the picture. So anyone's guess, and probably no change to Gardner for a few years while other things get sorted out.

Middletown Cluster isn't going to be affected at all because of the stranglehold CSX has on CSOR's ex-Conrail rights on the Springfield Line. There's extremely, extremely limited interchange rights that P&W can tap at Cedar Hill or Hartford, which is going to be a real puzzle to figure out. They'll gain direct access to Hartford Yard now on their Middletown runs which will be much easier for ops, but CSOR as of today doesn't fit the rest of the system contiguously because the paper barriers on carloads are so tight. If anything you'll see more incremental investment in the Air Line (now 286K up to the Tilcon quarry in Durham) and more traffic through there to avoid the high carload fees Amtrak charges for use of the Springfield Line. They keep their costs lowest by only using the Springfield line to serve on-line customers and the CSOR interchange trains to CSX West Springfield that all have no alternatives to get away from Amtrak, and moving as many thru loads between Hartford and New Haven on the Valley + Air Lines to reduce the # of carloads they have to pay Amtrak fees on.
 #1397342  by johnpbarlow
 
CN9634 wrote:
Cowford wrote:Granted, this will somewhat change the competitive landscape and cause some traffic shifts... but some of this speculation is over the top. A lot of traffic is simply not very "route flexible", competing roads (and suppliers, in the case where you're talking source substitution) would likely have effective response options, and the northern route ain't exactly the BNSF Chicago-LA racetrack. Mr Barlow's comments are much more on-point, IMHO.
Naturally based on my posts, I respectfully disagree with this...I do think its a powerplay for CN (especially based on some of the chatter I've been hearing)

But in the left field department, one of the JOC anaylsts is having a field day putting together a potential with this acquisition with the Port of Portland, Maine.... Literally can't make that one up. The best part is, no mention whatsoever of Pan Am. I wonder if he was thinking since SLR runs to Portland that somehow there is a direct connection there? I could maybe see some kind of Pan Am - P&W service to reach NYC for the water traffic, but this seems far fetched.

http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/shor ... 60815.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The JOC article URL given above has an embedded link to the JOC's October '15 article re: Port of Portland's renaissance (http://www.joc.com/port-news/us-ports/p ... 51004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) which talks about how the demise of SL&A's Auburn intermodal service led to LL Bean trucking containers of Asian made products from Port of NY so maybe there is another PAR/PAS opportunity. But I agree that Portland and Eimskip's every other week port call doesn't offer anything to a G&W - P&W hookup.

BTW, from a rail fan perspective, it would be great if G&W would bring some of those Aussie Clyde Engineering GM class locomotives (stored serviceable) that JoC used to illustrate its G&W-P&W article to Worcester!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwea ... _train.JPG
 #1397371  by Ridgefielder
 
Noel Weaver wrote:The line between Providence and Willimantic did not have very much traffic for a long time during the NHRR days. The New Haven actually abandoned the portion between Washington and Plainfield even before the Penn Central took over. Today you never know when a rather obsure branch will suddenly become rather busy. Willimantic waa once very, very busy, it will never reach the level of traffic of say 1920 but at least some of the rails will collect a lot less rust.
Noel Weaver
Noel- Didn't the New Haven use Willimantic-Plainfield as a high-wide clearance route after the Air Line was severed between Willi and Putnam in '55? Feel like I've seen pictures of auto racks heading toward Boston with the caption noting they were routed Maybrook-Danbury-Waterbury-Hartford-Willi-Plainfield.
 #1397378  by bwparker1
 
Cowford wrote:Granted, this will somewhat change the competitive landscape and cause some traffic shifts... but some of this speculation is over the top. A lot of traffic is simply not very "route flexible", competing roads (and suppliers, in the case where you're talking source substitution) would likely have effective response options, and the northern route ain't exactly the BNSF Chicago-LA racetrack. Mr Barlow's comments are much more on-point, IMHO.
Stop being such a debbie downer! :wink:
 #1397384  by TomNelligan
 
Willimantic to Plainfield was indeed part of the NH's route for auto racks and other overdimension traffic, but that ended when PC took over and in the 1970's the line west of Versailles was unused. It was only when Willimantic became an interchange point that the branch revived.
 #1397390  by Noel Weaver
 
Ridgefielder wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote:The line between Providence and Willimantic did not have very much traffic for a long time during the NHRR days. The New Haven actually abandoned the portion between Washington and Plainfield even before the Penn Central took over. Today you never know when a rather obsure branch will suddenly become rather busy. Willimantic waa once very, very busy, it will never reach the level of traffic of say 1920 but at least some of the rails will collect a lot less rust.
Noel Weaver
Noel- Didn't the New Haven use Willimantic-Plainfield as a high-wide clearance route after the Air Line was severed between Willi and Putnam in '55? Feel like I've seen pictures of auto racks heading toward Boston with the caption noting they were routed Maybrook-Danbury-Waterbury-Hartford-Willi-Plainfield.
Yes, it was known as the "Ford Train" and usually has one engine and around a dozen or so auto carriers all for Readville. It usually has maybe three or four cars of meat for Waterbury and it changed crews at Hartford but those were the only regular stops it made. Normally it ran on Sundays.
Noel Weaver
 #1397529  by Cowford
 
Stop being such a debbie downer! :wink:
Reality is rarely as exciting as speculation!
Naturally based on my posts, I respectfully disagree with this...I do think its a powerplay for CN (especially based on some of the chatter I've been hearing)
Are you implying CN is behind this? Or that CN even knew about this prior to the announcement?
 #1397533  by Backshophoss
 
Is there a possibilty of G&W after the merger of a "push" to remove the "paper barriers" that confine CSOR to CSX interchange
and allow P&W to bring general freight on CHFP to the NY&A?
Or is that a lost cause,CSX will not give up?
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