• High Speed Freight on the NEC.

  • For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.
For topics on Class I and II passenger and freight operations more general in nature and not specifically related to a specific railroad with its own forum.

Moderator: Jeff Smith

  by Tadman
 
Didn't we just go through this about a month ago? And the conclusions were that there is little SW-to-NE traffic and there is already a very safe and effective route in/out via CSX and P&W, plus the carfloat? Also once the "NY&A effect" was complete, wherein traffic rebounded under private freight operator from LIRR's 30 slide, the carloads off LI are not growing very much if at all? And the shippers/receivers on LI are not general industry but mostly support for the metropolis?
  by Pensyfan19
 
How about dual-modes for electric territory? (with single level cars of course)

Not to mention, Amtrak could reinstate the mail contract and pull a mail car or two on their trains. Not only that, but they could even have a mail train on the NEC since that line gets little to no major freight service. Most regular freight trains run along the ex-B&O main and other routes in order to prevent traffic with Amtrak on the NEC. This is an example which I am speaking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)
  by Tadman
 
mtuandrew wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:34 am First off: they mostly can’t, and definitely not on their own account. NEC? Norfolk Southern, Conrail Shared Assets, and Providence & Worcester hold the rights. Michigan Line? Again, NS holds rights.
And there's good reason for this. Amtrak is a placeholder, was never meant to be a real thing. They do a crummy job hauling passengers, can you imagine if we let them run freight? Goods that are vital to the economy? Next thing you know there would be one of the highly-officious non-T&E types waiting at a freight dock in Jackson MI to do stand-up sit-down marching BS with a bunch of inanimate goods to be loaded aboard a boxcar, red in the face with anger that pallets of steel dare to defy the authority of a blue-vested station attendant, while a second blue-vested station attendant is shrieking countermanded instructions at the same inanimate goods because he doesn't know the first attendant is giving instructions because they can't be relied upon to coordinate? Then they board the train and are given orders to change positions in the boxcar. Then the boxcar attendant goes on lunch break, good thing pallets of steel dont eat or drink. It would be the best car attendant job in the world!
  by mtuandrew
 
Tadman wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:47 amAnd the shippers/receivers on LI are not general industry but mostly support for the metropolis?
Specifically yes - that’s why I suggest a produce train. Fresh fruit and vegetables from Florida and Georgia has to take a truck to New Jersey, then be transloaded to a smaller truck to go across the river. Why not save a step and some diesel? It’s not NY&A’s usual business but would be entirely new loads.

No idea what would get sent back south though, other than empty containers. Thoughts welcome there.
  by Pensyfan19
 
Mixed freight anyone??? :P (that means passenger and freight cars on the same train)

Also, doesn't the Auto Train technically carry freight since it is transporting vehicles in auto racks along with passengers in passenger cars?
  by mtuandrew
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:00 amAlso, doesn't the Auto Train technically carry freight since it is transporting vehicles in auto racks along with passengers in passenger cars?
Nope. As far as the operating agreement between Amtrak and CSX is concerned, the cars are just oversized suitcases.
  by STrRedWolf
 
mtuandrew wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:57 am Specifically yes - that’s why I suggest a produce train. Fresh fruit and vegetables from Florida and Georgia has to take a truck to New Jersey, then be transloaded to a smaller truck to go across the river. Why not save a step and some diesel? It’s not NY&A’s usual business but would be entirely new loads.

No idea what would get sent back south though, other than empty containers. Thoughts welcome there.
The question here is... where would it go in NYC? Not Manhattan, there's no room and no terminal to off-load it.

You're stuck with Long Island City yard in Queens (and have to ether make several reverse-forward-reverse moves over switches), or take the loop at Sunnyside, to go NEC to LIC. Or, you take the Hells Gate Bridge to Oak Point Yard.. which has a lead to several distributors... including BEER and produce... but that's in the Bronx.

Ether way, you're trucking it the last mile into Manhattan. So why not save the diesel/electricity, logistics headaches, and paperwork, and just last mile it from New Jersey by truck?

I'd also bet CSX has track rights from Selkirk through Metro-North trackage and over to Oak Point Yard. Ooops, I've cut out the tunnel, all those double-stack restrictions, having to hand it off to Amtrak, etc etc etc. And you still have to last-mile it by truck.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:00 am Mixed freight anyone??? :P (that means passenger and freight cars on the same train)
If it's mixed passenger/freight, doesn't that mean the trains can only go freight speeds (because freight)?
  by Pensyfan19
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:26 pm
Pensyfan19 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:00 am Mixed freight anyone??? :P (that means passenger and freight cars on the same train)
If it's mixed passenger/freight, doesn't that mean the trains can only go freight speeds (because freight)?
If that's the case, then what would be the point of high speed freight??? That point would make this entire discussion moot.

Unless if it were properly secured in freight cars which can handle high speeds and can adjust with the terrain of the NEC. This train technically carried mail, but this is a possible example of high speed freight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_La_Poste
  by Arborwayfan
 
As I recall, when Amtrak carried mail, and during the Mail and Express Initiative of the late 1990s, Amtrak's profits (or revenue, I don't remember which) from mail and fast freight (as opposed to package express, which still exists) were under 100 million dollars a year. The M and E initiative did create an NYP-Pittsburgh-Chi train again for a while (Three Rivers), but otherwise its main effect was to delay trains and shift some schedules slightly. That's when the CZ was cut back from Oakland to Emeryville, for example.

People can correct me on the amounts of money. My basic point is that a single fast freight, or a few fast freight cars on passenger trains, is not going to being in a lot of revenue or turn a lot of profit even if it's highly profitable in percentage terms, which seems unlikely. Just as one passenger train a day uses a lot of planning and infrastructure for not many passengers, one freight a day would use a lot of planning and infrastructure for not much freight.
  by mtuandrew
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:16 pmEther way, you're trucking it the last mile into Manhattan. So why not save the diesel/electricity, logistics headaches, and paperwork, and just last mile it from New Jersey by truck?
Arborwayfan wrote:People can correct me on the amounts of money. My basic point is that a single fast freight, or a few fast freight cars on passenger trains, is not going to being in a lot of revenue or turn a lot of profit even if it's highly profitable in percentage terms, which seems unlikely. Just as one passenger train a day uses a lot of planning and infrastructure for not many passengers, one freight a day would use a lot of planning and infrastructure for not much freight.
These are the type of reasons I’m looking for - thank you! In that case I agree, it isn’t worth the hassle of new-build (or even conventional but abnormal) equipment and multiple carriers.
Pensyfan19 wrote:If that's the case, then what would be the point of high speed freight??? That point would make this entire discussion moot.
Exactly :wink:
  by west point
 
As an operator of the NEC i want no freight cars that have flat wheels. I would require that ther vbe a track before entering the NEC with "WILDS" Wheel impact load detectors that would exclude any train car with flat wheels. As many freights that pass here with flat wheels that would exclude most trains.
  by John_Perkowski
 
west point wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:51 pm As many freights that pass here with flat wheels that would exclude most trains.
You beat me to it. Out here in flyover country, the issue of flat wheels has improved ( used to be darn near every train), but there are still more than a few.