Passenger Rail Before Amtrak

[walt]

In 1975 I took the Southern Crescent from New York to Atlanta and back from Birmingham.

I remember looking out of the window just after leaving New York, presumably somewhere around Newark. I saw what looked to me like a third world commuter train, incredibly old and decrepit. I wasn't paying a lot of attention and it was only a momentary glimpse but I remember thinking it looked like there had been no investment for many years.

I suppose it might have been the precursor of what is now NJT. It is just possible I was looking at a PATH train. I remember it as having a wooden body, something that had disappeared in Britain on safety grounds.

By 1975 PATH was all PA-series cars or K-cars. It was either MP54s or (more likely) the 1930 DL&W MUs on the Erie Lackawanna (NJT) Morris & Essex division that were replaced with Arrows in 1984.

It wouldn't have been MP 54's. As old as they were ( some dated back to 1915- at least with respect to the PRR versions), they were still steel cars. Wooden cars had basically disappeared in the US by 1975 as well, and for the same reason ( safety).

[george matthews]

Yes, Mr. R-36, during 1975, people were paying $$$ to ride in these relics. Incidentially, I selected the photo with your handle in mind.

Yes, I think that is what I saw. What company would have been operating those things in 1975? Where would they have been going?
I see they didn't in fact have wooden bodies. My memory may well have deceived me.

[MudLake]

Yes, Mr. R-36, during 1975, people were paying $$$ to ride in these relics. Incidentially, I selected the photo with your handle in mind.

However, there was no way DL&W MU's were operating in revenue service on PRR rails (possibly for some reason escaping me, a locomotive hauled dead head move). They were 3KVDC; PRR then as now 11KVAC.

True, but Mr. Matthews certainly could have seen DL&W cars from the PRR (now NEC line) between Harrison and Kearny where the lines run parallel.

[David Benton]

It is just possible I was looking at a PATH train. I remember it as having a wooden body, something that had disappeared in Britain on safety grounds.

.
I thought the british rail mk1 stock was wooden bodied , and still running in the nineties ???

[CNJ]

Its possible Mr Matthews saw a Jersey Central commuter train (either Raritan Valley or North Jersey Coast Line (NJCL).

1975 they were still using the old CNJ heavywweight coaches

[Ken S.]

Its possible Mr Matthews saw a Jersey Central commuter train (either Raritan Valley or North Jersey Coast Line (NJCL).

1975 they were still using the old CNJ heavywweight coaches

I think that the NJCL trains at that time were made up mostly of the various (mostly ex-BN) secondhand cars NJDOT bought from the Western railroads.

[PClark]

tadman wrote:-

"Does anybody have insight into the decisions made at brass level by the Class I's as to why they joined Amtrak or didn't? I'd especially like to hear about SOU and ATSF, but I'm interested in any perspectives available."

An excellent reference work on the decade leading up to Amtrak is "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred W. Frailey (Kalmbach, 1998)

According to Frailey, Southern stayed out of Amtrak for 7 years because by 1971 (ironically, under the presidency of Graham Claytor Jr, a future Amtrak president) they had already got rid of nearly all of their passenger trains and preferred to operate the "Southern Crescent" themselves rather than pay the Amtrak "joining fee" of $9.6 million and be free of passenger-carrying obligations.

Santa Fe, on the other hand, would have been happy to continue operation of the "Super Chief/El Capitan", the "Texas Chief" the "San Diegans" and, possibly the "San Francisco Chief" but would have been obliged to keep operating a considerable number of hopeless losers for at least three more years. For this reason, president John Reed, reluctantly decided to sign up and was horrified by the results to the extent that the right of Amtrak to use the names "Super Chief" and "Texas Chief" were withdrawn in 1973.

[Gilbert B Norman]

While as an entry-level Management Trainee with the MILW on A-Day, I hardly could be considered "brass", I concur with Mr. Clark's reasoning (and of course Mr. Frailey's reporting) that the SRY stayed out because they had been quite successful with "self-help" in getting rid of trains between the CY 1969 measuring period and A-Day. The "membership dues', incidentally, were computed based upon that CY '69 period and were either to be 200% of a road's "solely related' intercity passenger losses, with Arthur Andersen (eons before Enron and when they were considered the Tiffany of my profession) as judge and jury, or 100% of the fully allocated "ICC formula" loss.

In short, the great "mother lode" that SRY stayed out because "we can run one better than they could even dream of doing' was just that; it was simply dollars and sense. But since "we're stuck with it for not less than five years (pursuant to RPSA '70) we may as well run it so that people will want to ride it".

Santa Fe had largely completed their self help prior to the measuring period in that their "whacking" largely occurred during 1968. But they were concerned that they would take a "hosing' if they had to enter Chicago Union Station under the 1919 Operating Agreement. That Agreement called for a tenant, such as the GM&O, to not only pay their "wheelage' (allocated operating expense) but a proportionate amount of the facility's debt service costs. To add insult to injury, the lucrative ground leases for 10 120 and then a-building 222 were shared only amongst the owners. True, they had knowledge of Section 4.4 of the May 1, 1971 Agreement, but they were quite concerned those provisions that could potentially nail Amtrak with the entire cost of "mausoleums" such as Cincinnati, complete with the phalanx of Cincinnati Union Terminal executives and their court-jesters (I know first hand as of 1981 that at Chicago Union Station, their Accounting Dept comprised some 14 clerks and EVERYTHING was done manually.Comptometers were the "calculator of the day"; computer? what's that), would simply be found "unconscionable' and Amtrak would be relieved of these costs. Amtrak had a more positive solution regarding 4.4; that was "get outta Dodge" - they were gone from CUT by 1972 and in their Amshack.

Another "on the fence' was SCL; the trains were well patronized still on A-Day Eve and the equipment "reasonably" new (SAL had new cars placed in service during 1955). Silvers and Champs were "making book" and even "cash positive". The lights reportedly burned late into the evening at 500 Water and then CEO Prime Osborn was personally involved in the decision making process. However, SCL was concerned that Amtrak could break the connections at Wash, or even Richmond depending on whether then-independent RF&P signed up. A 4AM rousting to "change at Richmond" would not favorably affect patronage of the trains. So SCL signed up.

Other roads such as the CRIP and D&RGW also were of the successful self help subsequent to the measuring period; additionally RI, then under Bankruptcy Protection, simply "didn't have the scratch" to sign up.

[delvyrails]

PRSL22,

These share-of-the-market data I copied years ago from a collection I had of annually-published "Yearbook of Railroad Facts" from the Association of American Railroads. The data usually went back several years. Today I believe the similar info may be available from the AAR's website or from the annual "Statistical Abstract of the U.S.", held in the reference section of most libraries.

Incidently, the wartime traffic peaked far above the 1920s and 1930s. I copied a few earlier figures: for 1929, the railroad share was 15.51%; for 1939, 7.64%; but for 1944, 31.52%. Railroad passenger miles went up from 23 million in 1939 to 96 milllion in 1944. The next year I copied, 1950, the figures were 6.39% and 32 million passenger miles.

georgematthews,

If you saw that old commuter train while looking down from your train on the embankment which crosses the New Jersey meadow, you may have seen a commuter train of Erie Lackawanna on one of the lines which cut under the embankment and fan out from Hoboken. Some of the ex-Lackawanna early-20th century open-platform steel cars may still have been in service during the 1970s. They easily remind us of the shorter open-platform wooden cars of the 19th century.

[TomNelligan]

An excellent reference work on the decade leading up to Amtrak is "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred W. Frailey (Kalmbach, 1998)

And if you can find a copy on the used book market, I would also strongly recommend Kalmbach's Journey To Amtrak, written by Harold Edmonson (with contributions from a large number of photographers including myself) and published in 1972. It captures better than any other book I've seen the sad, sad state of most US long distance passenger service on the eve of Amtrak. (Exceptions, as others have noted: Santa Fe and Seaboard Coast Line)

[Otto Vondrak]

[moved to Rail Travel & Trip Reports Forum for greater exposure - omv]

[Gilbert B Norman]

I totally concur with Mr. Nelligan regarding his thoughts of both cited works. Both are ex-libris GBN.

Now there is one point with which i take exception here and that regards Burlington Northern service at "The End". While still maintained at a high level, it had been notably downgraded from levels of the predecessor roads.

Some can say Lou Menk was "Menk the Fink', which was railfanese that I could hardly 'buy into". It is true, the only future he foresaw for passenger trains was "out" and, as Mr. Frailey notes in his work, the CB&Q was very much an operator through the mid 60's. Xmastime saw the Denver Zephyr (yes youngsters, this was in addition to the California Zephyr) operate in two Sections. True, they had to scour the system for roadworthy lightweight equipment and the secondary trains such as the Twin Cities, Ak-Sar-Ben and American Royal (running by Col Perkowski's home) became Zephyrs in name only with heavyweight, yet roadworthy, Coaches assigned during peak periods, but they ran the DZ - and more or less on time (by contrast what's the "Denver Zephyr" today? a CHI-DEN Sleeper line on the Zephyr).

But Lou held that "he wanted out" even with this overwhelming demand, some could say he was the Housemother who clicked the lights before all of the Brothers were drunk (NVRMINWATELZ), but he correctly saw the writing on the wall. During his hitch at Northern Pacific, the North Coast Limited was notably downgraded when the Obs Lounge was killed and something called the Lounge in the Sky became the First Class lounge (it was just tables replacing chairs in a Sleeper Dome).

The California Zephyr had been killed within days of finalization of the BN merger.

In short the only road that absolutely positively was operating trains on A-Day Eve that were completely free of downgrading was the ATSF.

[george matthews]

It is just possible I was looking at a PATH train. I remember it as having a wooden body, something that had disappeared in Britain on safety grounds.

.
I thought the british rail mk1 stock was wooden bodied , and still running in the nineties ???

No. Wooden bodied stock were all pre-war (pre-1939). British Rail built none of them. The Mark I stock - 1950s - lasted until recently. (In fact I saw the last set still in use on the Lymington branch last Saturday, where it has exemption as heritage stock.)

[JimBoylan]

PennCentral did manage to palm some P70 coaches on Amtrak trains. A newspaper photo of a 1972 train wreck above Cottman Ave. South of Holmesburg Jct. on the NorthEast Corridor in Philadelphia showed a PRR P70 coach without the streamlined air conditioning duct over the railroad (monitor) roof windows. The caption said that the cars were being returned to Philadelphia empty still littered with political pamphlets dropped by young demonstrators who had ridden up to New York City earlier in the day. At that time, all coach trains that ran through Trenton were for Amtrak. There may have still been a few MU car trips operated for S.E.P.T.A. and New Jersey Transit that used the same equipment and different crews both sides of Trenton, but they didn't use locomotives and coaches.
Some accounts of the Denver & Rio Grande Western decision mention a fear that Amtrak would insist on running a daily train on their single track railroad. The existing remnant of the California Zephyr was only 3 times a week.

[NellieBly]

Actually, wooden stock was outlawed by the City of New York on New York's transit system in the early 20th Century. Wood stock was also banned by PRR from operation in the Hudson tunnels, and as far as I know, the Hudson & Manhattan never had any wood cars, ever.

There may have been some wood equipment in non-interchange service in the Midwest and West, but by the 1960s I very much doubt you would have found it anywhere but railroad museums.

My pre-Amtrak experiences were all as a high-schooler at best. The memories are mixed. Many of the best concern the Florida trains of, first, Seaboard and ACL, and later the services operated by SCL after the 1967 merger. SCL operated no less than FOUR "full service" trains from New York to Florida in the late 1960s. The Silver Meteor served Miami, and the Silver Star served both east and west coasts, both via the former Seaboard main and Wildwood, FL (where the Star split). The Florida Special ran via the former ACL to Jacksonville, thence SAL to Miami (ever since the FEC strike of 1963). The Champion, which in earlier years had an "East Coast" and a "West Coast" version, in the late 1960s carried cars to a range of destinations on the west coast of Florida (Tampa, St. Petersburg, Venice, Naples), along with cars for Augusta, Wilmington, and Montgomery, AL. Amazing how they managed all that en-route switching.

In December 1970 my father and I drove my mother and sisters to Union Station in Washington, DC and put them on the Silver Meteor for Florida. We stood on the platform to watch the train pull out: at least a dozen sleepers, Sun Lounge, two diners, several coaches, and a teardrop obs, all matched stainless steel. My father, who was not at all a railfan, exclaimed, "What a beautiful train!" There were not too many North American trains about which you could say that in 1970.

In March of 1971, my best friend and I put together a trip to "say goodbye" to services Amtrak would not be taking over in the eastern U.S. We started out on the Birmingham Special, a train of heavyweight coaches (only) for Birmingham, AL via the Southern. At Lynchburg we switched to the Pocahontas, the last train on the N&W main. It had one sleeper, a diner-lounge, a handful of coaches (one of which was a dome, however). At Cincinnati we switched to L&N's Pan American, which had some coaches and an old heavyweight diner (but no staff; they boarded in Louisville). At Louisville we picked up a sleeper for New Orleans, a couple of sleepers and three or four coaches for Miami (the remains of the South WInd, which no longer ran through to Chicago). They were switched out at Montgomery, then at Flomaton we received a couple of coaches and a sleeper that constituted the Gulf Wind, Jacksonville to NO.

We spent a day in NO, then left the same evening on the same consist, backtracking to Flomaton but this time on a sleeper headed for Jacksonville. We had the same old heavyweight diner, which served dinner. At Chattahoochee, SCL put on a "grill car" to provide limited (but good) breakfast service into Jacksonville). We laid over in Jax, then took the NB Champion via Waycross to Savannay, got a hotel there for the night, then rode the Nancy Hanks to Atlanta. The NH was the only train to use the old C of G station in Savannah (still there, and now the visitor center). It had an F unit, a heavyweight coach, a heavyweight diner-lounge, and a stainless steel dome car. We rode the dome. Nice train.

At Atlanta, we switched to the overnight L&N train to St. Louis, consisting of one E unit, a baggage car, and a coach. It was the last train using Union Station in downtown (Terminal Station had already closed; Southern was using Peachtree Station, and a platform at 99 Spring Street, their office building, for the Nancy Hanks).

We were the only passengers beyond Chattanooga on the L&N, and the only train using the old Chattanooga Union Station (since demolished). We ambled through the night, arriving St. Louis to find the gate from the platform to the concourse locked. We were the first passengers to get off the train for several days (the line from Evansville to St. Louis is now mostly abandoned, and the St. Louis light rail uses its ROW from East St. Louis to the end of the light rail line).

I'm afraid our N&W and L&N experiences were probably more typical than my many rides on SCL and predecessor passenger trains. There was, of course, no national reservation system, so our March 1971 trip took multiple trips and phone calls to Union Station's reservations agents to put together, and produced a wonderful collection of tickets with rubber-stamped "from" and "to" city names, handwritten reservation slips, and prepaid ticket orders. I wish I'd saved them.

And all of it had to be paid for in cash -- unless, of course, you had a Rail Travel Card.