Passenger Rail Before Amtrak

[PRSL22]

This question is for the people lucky enough to experience American rail travel before Amtrak. In the 1960s, how common was it for the average American to use train as their mode of transportation? Were trains like the Super Chief or Broadway Limited actually household names? How about for the 1950s? Thanks for answering!

[Ocala Mike]

As one of the "lucky" ones, I can tell you that there was a huge difference between, say, the start of the 50's and the end of the 60's. The two biggest nails in the coffin during those two decades had to be Eisenhower's interstate highway system and the advent of commercial jetliners.

I still remember when major league baseball teams commonly rode the rails when there were only 16 teams, none further west than St. Louis. I recall seeing the Brooklyn Dodgers board a train for Cincinnati back in 1954 at Grand Central Terminal. I myself rode behind steam in the late 40's on trips from NYC to Lewiston, Maine changing at Portland. By the late 50's, it was all diesel and we had to go from South Station to North Station in Boston and change again in Portland.

Basically, to answer your question, in 1951 long-distance train travel was still viable, but by 1969 only the biggest name trains were left, and they were in their death throes.

[GWoodle]

In 1962 I was 10years old. The Interstate highway system began in the 1950's and gradually built more & more routes. The eastern tollways from Indiana, Ohio, PA & New York may have been the first LD routes built. Construction in the 1960's finished many of the urban expressways.

The developments had a direct impact on the trains. It was a new deal to be able to go 60-70mph instead of the slower 40-65 on the state & US highway routes. Interstates made possible long distance trips via car & cheap gas. The new Holiday Inn's provided a good bed & a place to eat at day's end.

Some routes like the Burlington & ATSF were a class act until the end. It was a pleasant way to travel. Other routes were not so fortunate. They may have been the best way to travel to distant Western cities. There always seemed to be a huge difference between the Eastern carriers (NYC, PRR) & the western ones.

More competition for other routes came from Greyhound. As the interstates were completed, you could get frequent service from springfield into Chicago. Travel times were competitive with more choice for what time of day you want to travel.

In 1962 the DC8 & Boeing product began the age of jet travel. Those that wanted to fly from LA to NY could now do so. The smaller 727-737 created the market for the short haul route. Still, most average folks will drive as long as gas is cheap and 70mph speeds allow short travel times.

[walt]

Actually, the era of Jet Air Travel began in 1957 with the advent of the Boeing 707. ( The actual first commercial Jet liner was the British DeHaviland Comet, but these planes turned out to be fatally flawed and began to fall, out of the sky after only a few years service) The development of the Interstate highway system did help make Greyhound more competitive because it permitted Greyhound ( and Trailways) to run faster express service between such cities as NYC- Washington, Phila- Washington, etc. than had been previously possible. All of this drastically cut into the passenger traffic which had previously belonged to the railroads.
BTW- The first of the"limited access" highways was the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Before this interesting material gets shipped off to Mr. Benton's Rail Travel Forum; I think simply from one who knew "the real deal" and having traveled every major route offering service during the '60's, save the San Francisco Chief, it is no wonder my Amtrak-era travels, with exceptions of course, has been confined to a need to go somewhere and Amtrak offers service convenient to that need.

A number of my pre-A-Day travel experiences are reported at Mr. Benton's forum; for those with access to documentation (Wayner is ex-libris) of the "post-war" passenger fleet, my "Consists" topic could prove interesting.

But we should note that there was "the other side" to railroad operated passenger service. While "we" here may think of RR service in terms of Streamliners and Domeliners, there was this side as well; cars such as this P-70 were assigned to PRR secondary trains such as the Manhattan and Pennsylvania Limited right up to "The End'.

[jonnhrr]

I started attending Lehigh University in Bethlehem PA in 1967 and thus had several opportunities to sample travel on the NEC between Philadelphia/NY and my home near Boston.

This was during the dreaded Penn Central era and I would say although interesting from a railfan standpoint, as a practical means of travel I don't believe the NEC was viewed as favorably as the current Amtrak incarnation. Trains weren't even on most people's radar, and with air fares relatively cheap (if you were lucky you could get a $9 standby ticket on Eastern Airlines from Newark to Boston). Although I would say the trains were generally well patronized, especially on holiday periods, although not like they are today.

There was a great deal of deferred maintenance. For example my first trip home Thanksgiving eve 1968 I rode in an ex NHRR Stainless Steel coach with lights that went out at every stop - most likely dead batteries. The lights failed completely after NY. Then there were the P70 coaches on the NY to philly clockers (as noted by Mr. Norman), which were on their last legs. Many of the cars were not clean, and a trip to the bathroom could be an adventure. Timekeeping was often affected by the maintenance issues - stuck drawbridges, derailments, etc.

There were other compensations, especially for the railfan. Some trains still had real dining cars, although whether the commissary had gotten around to provisioning them was hit and miss (one such trip out of Boston had already run out of eggs by Providence so it was OJ and toast). You also saw mail trains with RPO's and long Florida bound trains of sleepers with exotic name boards (for this New Englander) such as SCL and RF&P.

Another inconvenience that was resolved by the Amtrak takeover was that many Boston - NY trains terminated at Grand Central so that required a long walk or a trip on the subway to continue one's trip south from Penn Station. The subway in NY is another institution that has come a long way since those days

There were 2 bright spots, the Metroliner and Turbo Trains. I did have the opportunity to ride the latter which was quite an experience.

Jon

[delvyrails]

PRSL22,

You ask how common it was in the 1960s for the average person to ride trains. According to "The Yearbook of Railroad Facts" from those times, the railroad share (incuding commuters) of the total transportation market in 1960 was 2.75%; and it declined steadily to 1.08% in 1969. The railroad share reached rock bottom at 0.66% in 1972, when Amtrak began operations. The market share has fluctuated generally just above that level since then, rising and falling with gasoline prices, etc. Amtrak's passenger miles figure has risen with the population and total all-modes passenger miles.

Please bear in mind that Amtrak's route network today is largely based on the demography of 1972, and that's a handicap.

[PRSL22]

Only 2.75% by 1970, thats bad. What were the figures for airlines or buses? Howd you get this book, i feel like I could spend hours reading it!

[PRSL22]

by 1960*

[walt]

One other thing to remember is that most railroad passengers did not ride on the "name"trains ( or the "crack varnish" as they were also called). These trains were ususally extra fare limited stop trains. Most passengers would have ridden on trains more like the PRR's "Clockers" or other intercity trains which ran slower, made more stops, and generally used older equipment ( like the PRR's P-70 coaches). And travelling on some of these trains ( though not necessarily on the "Clockers") could be downright brutal. Additionally, there were still some "branch" lines-- not always commuter lines---- which would also have served a certain segment of the travelling public. When the railroads began to eliminate these lines, and the "local" inter city trains, the "average" rider was forced to find alternative transportation. If he or she didn't opt to use Greyhound, and had one available, the private automobile became the "carrier" of choice. With the airlines syphoning off the "cream" of the former "name train" passengers- particuarly the business traveler, by the 1972 advent of Amtrak, rail passenger use, particularly intercity use, was at its all time low.

[GWoodle]

Actually, the era of Jet Air Travel began in 1957 with the advent of the Boeing 707. ( The actual first commercial Jet liner was the British DeHaviland Comet, but these planes turned out to be fatally flawed and began to fall, out of the sky after only a few years service) The development of the Interstate highway system did help make Greyhound more competitive because it permitted Greyhound ( and Trailways) to run faster express service between such cities as NYC- Washington, Phila- Washington, etc. than had been previously possible. All of this drastically cut into the passenger traffic which had previously belonged to the railroads.
BTW- The first of the"limited access" highways was the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

While the 707 came out in 1957, I'm trying to remember if it was 1960 or so when United & American shifted most of their flights from Midway to O'hare. The World's Busiest Airport shifted locations. I can easily remember Midway becoming a virtual ghost town till the much later air deregulation with new airlines like Air Florida, ATA, Midway, Southwest, etc.

[Tadman]

My other hobbies include foreign cars, and I read the british car mags quite often. Lately, they've chronicled the demise of the Brit auto industry from a management perspective, and it'd be interesting to understand the Class I management perspective of joining Amtrak/NRPC - obviously some roads desperately wanted out of passenger service, like SP and PC, while some didn't or couldn't get out of passenger, like RI, SOU, and DRGW, and finally some roads worked hard to provide good service to the end but sold their passenger franchise to Amtrak, such as ATSF and BN. Does anybody have insight into the decisions made at brass level by the Class I's as to why they joined Amtrak or didn't? I'd especially like to hear about SOU and ATSF, but I'm interested in any perspectives available.

[george matthews]

In 1975 I took the Southern Crescent from New York to Atlanta and back from Birmingham.

The train itself was nice and I greatly enjoyed the steak in the diner. I remember looking out of the window just after leaving New York, presumably somewhere around Newark. I saw what looked to me like a third world commuter train, incredibly old and decrepit. I wasn't paying a lot of attention and it was only a momentary glimpse but I remember thinking it looked like there had been no investment for many years.

I suppose it might have been the precursor of what is now NJT. It is just possible I was looking at a PATH train. I remember it as having a wooden body, something that had disappeared in Britain on safety grounds. On my earlier visit to the US in 1963 I travelled exclusively with the Hound and saw hardly any trains, though I might have seen two carriages of a train somewhere out west - a rather short passenger train. (Of course now I wish I had seen some trains, but the Hound ticket was cheap - $99 for 99 days, covering the whole country - and I did).

[R36 Combine Coach]

In 1975 I took the Southern Crescent from New York to Atlanta and back from Birmingham.

I remember looking out of the window just after leaving New York, presumably somewhere around Newark. I saw what looked to me like a third world commuter train, incredibly old and decrepit. I wasn't paying a lot of attention and it was only a momentary glimpse but I remember thinking it looked like there had been no investment for many years.

I suppose it might have been the precursor of what is now NJT. It is just possible I was looking at a PATH train. I remember it as having a wooden body, something that had disappeared in Britain on safety grounds.

By 1975 PATH was all PA-series cars or K-cars. It was either MP54s or (more likely) the 1930 DL&W MUs on the Erie Lackawanna (NJT) Morris & Essex division that were replaced with Arrows in 1984.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Yes, Mr. R-36, during 1975, people were paying $$$ to ride in these relics. Incidentially, I selected the photo with your handle in mind.

However, there was no way DL&W MU's were operating in revenue service on PRR rails (possibly for some reason escaping me, a locomotive hauled dead head move). They were 3KVDC; PRR then as now 11KVAC.