Grand Luxe - New Development

[Gilbert B Norman]

It appears the Adios drumhead has been hung out:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 55&t=49661

Moderator: "lock 'er up" as discussion should rightly move forth over at Mr. Benton's forum.

[DonPevsner]

(1)A total fiasco.

(2)Passengers who made credit-card deposits should be able to get refunds from their credit-card issuers.

[icgsteve]

can we now be honest that the idea of for profit land cruise companies taking over some of Amtrak LD is a fantasy....Please?? The economics do not work, it will never work, it has not worked for almost 100 years.

[jp1822]

When the Grand Luxe went under the Colorado Rail Car umbrella so to speak, they should have really made it into what Rocky Mountaineer has done - offering "day" trips aboard the train, radiating perhaps from Denver to the West Coast. But unfortunately what they had for cars at first were the AOE cars, which are largely sleepers.

[prr60]

can we now be honest that the idea of for profit land cruise companies taking over some of Amtrak LD is a fantasy....Please?? The economics do not work, it will never work, it has not worked for almost 100 years.

I would say 40 years, not 100. Most passenger rail operations were profitable into the 50's and even 60's. Some, like the Sante Fe, remained marginally profitable right up to Amtrak. But your basic premise is dead-on. Running a stand-along land cruise operation on US railroads will not work over the long haul. There are two few routes and too few customers interested in rail travel who are willing to pay the price. Once that core group rides the handful of viable trips, your customer base is gone.

[slchub]

Looks like this is not a rumor:

"GrandLuxe Rail Journeys, which runs luxury train tours in the U.S. and Mexico, is halting operations this week, customers are being told. Officials of the Evergreen, Colorado, company, formerly American Orient Express, did not return phone calls seeking comment. The company website gave no hint of problems.
But Bob McMillen, chief executive of Travelwizard.com, a company in San Rafael, California, that books luxury travel, said GrandLuxe today sent a letter to customers stating that it “will cease operations with the return of the train to Tacoma [Washington] on Thursday morning, Aug. 28, 2008.” The notice said the company was “financially unable” to continue operations."

http://travel.latimes.com/daily-deal-bl ... ompa-2606/

I have tried calling the toll-free reservations number for over 24 hours and after being in hold for periods of 20-45 minutes each time I was never able to get through to an representative. Also, an e-mail to thier HR dept. and Webmaster were returned from thier server.

It was a good run.

[VPayne]

Well, I would cast a vote for this being a sad moment. The service has lasted as long as some of the investor owned railroad services of the heyday. The central theme between the acquisition of AOE by Colorado Railcar and Amtrak is the difficulty in obtaining capital on a self-financing basis to really invest in money and labor saving railcar solutions. My understanding is Colorado Railcar was going to invest in the fleet to increase capacity, bringing the economics in line with other tourist offerings at that scale.

The demands of the operating side seemed to have intervened for now. If Amtrak could find the politically tenable resources to take a long hard look at the labor and market efficiencies of the current sleeper fleet I could easily foresee an economic improvement that would make them the stars of the long distance network. There are a lot of costs that Grandluxe faced just to move a two-engine consist under an Amtrak lease but these apply to the Amtrak LD trains as well. I would imagine you are looking at $30/mile just for power, crew, and trackage rights on a lease maybe $25 if you are Amtrak. There has to be enough paying capacity to offset a two-engine configuration. The other $20 some portion of the cost doesn't change much with regard to accommodations in the consist. I also have to wonder if the whole ADA level platform thing had anything to do with this as if they rebuilt the cars the might run afoul of ADA statutes.

The chief change would be a move to larger bedroom/compartment offerings across the board with queen sized beds on the lower level. The population is aging... I know this was voiced to me one time as something Colorado Railcar saw as needed in the luxury category. Grandluxe still had a portion of the fleet equipped with heritage bedroom configuration, with a really nice finish. Fleet List and pictures

Remember, Colorado Railcar is the one that built a mock up of a Ultradome style sleeper. I think I would fit 18 some bedroom style rooms. The key is capacity in intercity rail operations.

I was once offered an interview at Colorado Railcar back a while ago. My understanding is the manufacturing operation has built a few DMUs, one just recently for TriMet and even the geometry car for the FRA (must be doing something right). Perhaps some comments about Colorado Railcar are unfounded on this board.

[DutchRailnut]

Nobody is denying that Colorado railcar can build good cars, But seeing Colorado railcar as major player and building cars for Amtrak is a pipedream, they are nothing more than a over grown hobby shop making cars for a niche market.
Their claims for the DMU were simply not true, and time proved it.

[VPayne]

I think they still have the only currently FRA acceptable DMU. They claimed it and it seems to be true. Seems like the Amtrak DMU's have not panned out but they were at least considered by Amtrak.

[DutchRailnut]

Even a RDC is FRA compliant, as for current compliance yes any engine build today has to comply with todays rules.
Why is RDC still compliant, cause its compliant on the day it was build, its grandfathered, only minor mods would be ditch lights and speed recorder.
The same things that were drawbacks on a RDC are same drawbacks killing the DMU.
simple as that.
in 2009 the FRA requirement for buff strenght goes from 800 000 to 1000 000 so does the DMU still comply ?? maybe if CRC can get out of severe trouble their in .

[wigwagfan]

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Let's please keep the discussion of Colorado Railcar and its products (i.e. the DMU) separate; I believe the self-propelled vehicle forum is a good place to discuss.

CRC and GrandLuxe are separate companies, and in fact Tom Rader no longer has any control at CRC as he was ousted by the company's investors.

I'll allow discussion of GrandLuxe to continue here as there are numerous legitimate links to Amtrak regarding that service.

Thanks,

[GrandLuxeEmployee]

If anyone has any questions about the GrandLuxe, what I've read so far is true EXCEPT it cost $65 per mile to operate the train. A friend of my aunt was working on the train. He was flown back to Denver on Friday. He said the announce ment was a shock to all. The last of the runs to Glacier were apparently over 120 pax! Not sure why the GLE stopped.

[Noel Weaver]

I'll bet some on here recall the "Florida Fun Train". it ran between Hollywood and Orlando separate from Amtrak although it
had Amtrak crews on it. It failed a few years ago too. I think these are graphic examples of just why private operation of
passenger trains is destined for failure at least in the USA. It started out with big plans and a lot of "ballyhoo" too but it
just didn't work.
I know a few in DC are pushing for private operation of some of Amtrak's routes but it won't work here either.
Maybe it is regretable that something like "Grand Luxe" didn't work out but I am not surprised at its failure.
Noel Weaver

[wigwagfan]

I'll bet some on here recall the "Florida Fun Train". it ran between Hollywood and Orlando separate from Amtrak although it
had Amtrak crews on it. It failed a few years ago too. I think these are graphic examples of just why private operation of
passenger trains is destined for failure at least in the USA. It started out with big plans and a lot of "ballyhoo" too but it
just didn't work.

I don't think it is the concept that caused the failure, it is that:

1. Americans' perceptions of rail transport,
2. The perception that creates a value for rail transport,
3. Amtrak's willingness to price its product at that "value" point, regardless of whether it generates revenue sufficient to cover its costs,
4. Americans' unwillingness to pay higher than Amtrak fares for rail service, even if the service is greatly higher than Amtrak's,
5. The resulting unfair playing field for competition between the "for profit" private companies which have no chance at making a profit, and the "for-profit-like" Amtrak which has no incentive to make a profit and thus intentionally does not.

The same reason is applicable for the reason that private shuttle services rarely exist in successful competition with city transit systems.

[taoyue]

It is hardly likely that Amtrak pricing contributed in any significant way to the Fun Train's failure. Just how many of the Fun Train's prospective passengers got desensitized by Amtrak prices, anyway? Many (most?) Florida vacationers come from areas of the country with little or no Amtrak service.

No, I think rail is simply not worth the money, period. Compared to the price of a cruise vacation, a train trip seems exorbitant. Of course, there are segments of the population that are not price-sensitive (Acela Express anyone?), but apparently not enough to sustain Grand Luxe.