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Tell us where you were and what you saw!

Moderator: David Benton

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  by David Benton
well, i have always wondered about the economics of having crew accoodation onboard . Given the high pricing of the Canadian , it would probably be cheaper to fly new crews in , throughout the journey . Then you also have the benefit of fresh crews as well .

  by Gilbert B Norman
As noted in another posting and in commemoration of the fortieth anniversary of both Century's and Broadway's passing, "here we go":

PRR #29 Broadway Limited Jan 1, 1962 (rode)

NY-Hbg GG-1 4912
Hbg-Chi E-7 5852A
Hwt RPO 6528
4-4-2 Imperial Bower
10-6 Genessee Rapids
12DX-4BR Cloud Creek
4-4-2 Imperial Peak
5BR-Lng Harbor Rest
Diner 4618
Kitchen Dorm 4619
4-4-2 Imperial Hills
11 BR Elberton
12DX-4BR Crane Creek
10-6 Lehigh Rapids
10-6 Catawissa Rapids (my car)
2 Master Rm 1 DR Obs Mountain View

Let us not forget Gray Lady; Dec 14, 1962 #25 Century (observed arriving La Salle St before boarding NKP #8 to Cleveland)

E-8 4093
8601 Bagg
8971 Bagg-Dorm
2925 Coach
10816 16Sg-8DB Slumbercoach
458 Diner-Grill (one such in Amtrak service today)
10803 24Sg 8Db Slumbercoach
10358 22RM Charlotte Harbor
10186 10-6 St Clair river
477 Kitchen-Lng
400 Diner
10152 10-6 Miami River
10501 12BR Port Byron
10507 Port of Windsor
10639 5BR-Obs Sandy Creek

  by Scoring Guy
As per the onboard crew of the VIA Canadian:
They alway change crews at Winnipeg: The crew between Toronto and Winnipeg was all from Winnipeg, and the crew between Winnipeg and Vancouver was all from Vancouver. I don't know if that's always the case as to where the crew people are from. One veteran told me that the dorm/baggage car quit carrying crew member over 15 years ago, in fact on this trip that car (now sans crew quarters) ran "backwards".
By the way, there was quite a large VIA maintenance facility just outside of Vancouver, with a lot of Budd cars parked there, mostly, indoors.

  by Gilbert B Norman
NKP #8 The New Yorker Dec 14, 1962 (rode Chi-Cleveland)
DL-701 895 Chi-Bellevue
GP-9 461
Bagg 344
HW Diner 129
HW Coach 85
LW Coach 100 (DH, crew lounge, no passengers allowed)
EL 10-6 Benjamin Loder Cle-Hob

Likely the locomotives were exchanged at Bellevue so that “specialty” locomotives, namely those with passenger steam generators could be maintained at one facility.

Also I observed that morning the arrival of NKP #5 City of Chicago:

NKP #5 City of Chicago Dec 14, 1962 (observed La Salle St)

GP-9 475
NYC Bagg 8850
EL Milk 6608
NKP Bagg 341
EL LW Coach 1304
NKP 10-6 City of Peoria
City of St Louis
6BR-Lng City of Chicago
10-6 City of Lorain
Business Car #1

Oh, and theAlco PA’s, the Blue Birds migrated during 1962, so I missed riding behind them. However, I did observe the PA’s on various occasions at La Salle St. Now the ironic part; I was scheduled to ride behind them during Dec 1961, but I guess you could say, they flew away on me. As I have noted here at the Forum at other topics, that Dec 1961 trip home to New York for Xmas recess (“back in my day”, colleges on semester academic years had an Xmas recess reconvening early January; finals started along about Jan 20 now I understand that the semester is over with finals completed by Xmas) was to be “bumper to bumper to bumper” Chgo-NKP#8-Buff-EL#8-Hoboken. I had a Bedroom reserved, since in the NKP “City of--’ Pullmans, they were center car and with the change of direction at Buffalo (hence bumper to bumper to bumper), I would have forward riding throughout the entire trip as those cars had two movable chairs rather than a fixed sofa.

However, before leaving for home and the inevitable “Xmas stress”, I paid a visit to a young lady friend (grandmother today; happily married to her “one and only“) who attended a small college in Cedar Rapids (Coe). Transportation to Chi and the 99.44% safe connection was to be MILW #20, the Arrow, But on this rare occasion, the Arrow was “Broken Arrow’ and arrived CUS two hours late, or fifteen minutes before #8 was to depart - at LaSalle. There was a “step on it taxicab ride’ a mad dash carrying bags down the platform….but the Blue Birds had spread their wings…..

I exchanged the Sleeper space for same on EL#2 (could not consider Century or Broadway, as I would have had to lay out cash for the rail ticket) and got home some ten hours late, and the inevitable from my Father of “why can’t you just FLY like everyone else does?”

  by Gilbert B Norman
Even though practically from Dec 1960 Merger Day, the Erie Lackawanna was killing trains, namely service to Buffalo and through service over the ERIE Hob-Bingo, there clearly was management philosophy that “if we have to run ‘em, we’ll run ‘em right’. Rechristening the Chi-Hoboken Erie Limited (rerouted Bingo-Hob over the DL&W) as the Phoebe Snow was indicative of that.

Although I presented a similar consist earlier in this topic, here's an "encore':

EL # 2; observed Hoboken June 29, 1962

E-8 821
Alco PA 861
Mail Stge 488
Box Xprs 10046
Bagg 204
NKP Bagg 316
Bagg 678
Hwt Coach 1072
Lwt Coach 1315
Heavywt Diner 747
10-6 Pequest
Tavern Obs 790
Lwt Coach 1304

It was my understanding that the Obs was a Meadville-Hoboken line and that it was normally assigned rear and properly pointed. However, I guess that day “something got in the way”.. Even by 1962, as I recall , the passenger cars were all painted into DL&W livery.

No question whatever, the EL was a class act right up to its demise. There was no “dirty diesels still pull trains, dirty cars still haul faces and fannies”.. As daylight trains on PRR and NYC during that era were reduced to Coaches and Snack Bars, there was Miss Phoebe still offering full Dining service.

While not the case that day, I do consider myself luck to have had ‘the privilege to ride”.

  by Gilbert B Norman
Even though the Century had less than four years to live, look what awaited me for the journey back to school evening of New Year’s Day.

That’s right - in sections!!!

NYC 1-25 (rode GCT-Chi) 1-1-63

E-7A Harmon-Chi
CUT Motor GCT-Harmon
NYC Bagg-Dorm 8980 Budd
22RM 10365 Erie Harbor
10-6 10167 Manistee River PSCM
10152 Miami River
10230 Oswegatchie River
Kitch Lng 476
Century Diner 402
Diner Grill 450 Budd
12BR 10510 Port Clinton PSCM
10513 Port Chester (my car BR C IIRC)
10504 Port of Lewiston
5BR-Obs 10631 Sunrise Brook Budd

NYC 2-25 1-1-63

4017 E-7 Harmon-Chi
4022 E-8
CUT Motor GCT-Harmon
Bagg 6017
Dorm 8964 PSCM
Coach 2925 Budd
3089 PSCM SS
2908 Budd
Kitch Lng 477
Diner 400
16-10 Slpr C0 10818
24-8 10803
5BR-Obs 10634 Sandy Creek PSCM

This was indeed a “once in a lifetime’ rail travel experience; snow packed tracks and Central’s impeccable ROW in a fairly close to center Bedroom made for a ride so smooth you hardly knew you were traveling at 79mph

  by Gilbert B Norman
MILW 111 City of Portland June 2, 1963: (rode Marion to Denver)

UP E-9A 964
B 955
UP 5754
MILW Dorm 1312
Dome Coach 7008
MILW 611
UP 5511.
Dome Diner 8005
Dome Lounge 9001
11BR Placid Haven
10-6 Pacific Harbor (my car)
Pacific Northwest

  by Gilbert B Norman
B&O #2 National Limited (observed STL 1/25/62)

Locomotive; sorry no record
B&O H/W RPO Mail 77
H/W Dorm Buffet Lounge 1316
L/W Coach 3583
MP 24-8 S/C Southland (San Antonio-Wash)
T&P 10-6 Eagle Spirit (San Antonio Wash)
B&O Diner Pittsburgh
16DX-4BR Robin
2DR 1BR Bar-Lng-Obs Maumee River
  by Gilbert B Norman
Norfolk & Western #41 The Pelican July 19, 1965; consist recorded at Roanoke after riding NY-Roanoke:

SRY FP-7 6137
E-8 2908
ACL Express 553
NH Bagg 5162
PRR Box Express 5271
Bagg Express 6146
REX Reefer Exp 7563
SRY Bagg Express 545
Bagg 425
H/W Coach 1071
N&W L/W Coach 1729
SRY 10-6 Spring Valley
PRR H J Heinz
N&W Diner 1018
Bagg 1329

The Pelican had an indeed unusual routing: NY-PRR-Wash-SRY-Lynchburg-N&W-Bristol-SRY-NO. In short, it was interchanged from the Southern to the Norfolk & Western then BACK TO the Southern. I was never aware of any other scheduled train that was routed such.

By 1965, the Pelican was likely the"Chattanooga Choo Choo" or as close as there would be to the Mack Gordon(lyrics)/Harry Warren (composer)/Glenn Miller (best known artist) song. The Pelican's departure from NY was 730PM rather than "about a quarter to four". Unfortunately, there was no "Dinner in the Diner, nothing could be finer" - only Breakfast on a Roanoke-Bristol Diner.
  by Gilbert B Norman
UP 1-104 City of Los Angeles; rode LA-Chi returning from the Rose Bowl (leave the "horror stories" of chartered DC-6's to others). Consist recorded at Ogden Jan 3, 1964. Note this consist was all-Pullman; there was an equally lengthy Coach consist as well operating as 2-104.

UP E-9 965
Oak-Chi Bagg 6004
SP Bagg 6504
LA-Chi UP Bagg 6332
Dorm 6002
10-6 Pacific Meadow
Pacific Slope
11BR Placid Sea
5-2-2- Ocean Mist
Diner 4807 (Dome Diner "MIA")
Dome- Lounge 9009
LA-Oma 10-6 Pacific Harbor
LA-Chi SP 9107
MILW Lake Cour D Alene
Lake Chatcolet
Ogd-Chi UP Diner 4809
Oak-Chi 4-4-2 Imperial Rose
Imperial Letter
12-4 Western Plains
10-6 SP 9040
UP Pacific Mist

"If it rolls, it runs", but all equipment was clean and roadworthy.

BTW it was Illinois over Washington; Illinois did go "once in a Blue Moon" the chance to go to the Rose Bowl was indeed a "perk" of attending a Big Ten school, however, no assurance such will be a football powerhouse during one's years as a student.


  by jhdeasy
Gilbert B Norman wrote:MILW Train 104 April 14, 1962 (rode 2-104 Marion IA to Chicago)

1-104 "City of San Francisco' Section

UP E-9 940-A
E-9 956-B
Bagg 5706
RPO 5900
Dorm 6002
Coach 5436
MILW 657
SP 2489
UP Diner 4813
Lounge 6205
4-4-2 Imperial Bird
10-6 Pacific Falls
Pacific Scene
SP 9042

2-104 "City of Los Angeles" Section - additional cars for physician;s group (walked through them; heard a lot of "Doctalk")

UP E-9 955-A
Bagg 6318
MILW Dorm 1713
UP Cafe 5009
Dome Coach 7002
Coach 5419
10-6 Pacific Island
11 BR Placid Harbor
5BR-2C-2DR Ocean Sands
Dome Diner 8001
Dome Lounge 9014
4-4-2 Imperial Gate
SP 10-6 9101
CBQ Silver Swan (begin tour party cars)
WP Silver Swallow
UP Diner 4811
ATSF 4-4-2 Nankoweap
6BR-2C-2DR Oraibi
UP 4-4-2 Imperial Flower
Dorm 5601

Oh for the memories of happier days when UP treated all with pride and in style.
Mr. Norman:

Well, thanks to your records, now I know where our private car MOUNT VERNON (formerly Union Pacific PACIFIC ISLAND) was running on April 14, 1962 ... a day that just happens to be 50 years to the day after RMS TITANIC, with my great uncle Daniel Buckley onboard (he survived), collided with the iceberg!

Jack Deasy
  by Gilbert B Norman
Zephyr Rocket, who honestly has heard of that one before?

Well here goes:

CRIP #150-CBQ #8 Zephyr Rocket Jan 24, 1962 (rode Cedar Rapids to St Louis)

CRIP E-8 637
Baggage 864
CBQ Baggage 1597
CRIP Baggage 752
Coach 332
6-6-4 Pullman Golden Banner
CBQ HW Diner Lounge (Quincy St Louis)

Just as well I rode when I did, as the Sleeper was pulled with the April '62 timetable; train long gone before A-Day; even the ROW through Cedar Rapids is gone; it is a nature trail with an excellent footbridge vantage for viewing UP 'action' X-ing the Cedar River.

The train originated MSP over the route of the Twin Star Rocket, diverged at Manly to Waterloo Cedar Rapids West Liberty, Interchanged to Q @ Burlington, West Quincy, X'd Big Muddy @ W Alton, thence to St L. Locomotives "ran through'; other set had a Q engine and Q Sleeper.
  by Gilbert B Norman
PRR 113 Silver Meteor observed “Old Penn” Aug 25 62

GG-1 4916
SAL Dorm 6062
PRR 4-4-2 Imperial Lea (ACF Tuscan Red)
SAL 10-6 Orlando
5BR Sun Lng Miami Beach
Diner 6107
10-6 Charlotte
PRR 10-6 Green Rapids (ACF Tuscan Red)
SAL Coach 6223
PRR 4062
SAL 6240
Diner 6107
RFP Coach 854
SAL 6205
Tavern Obs 6300

While it has been reported at Amtrak Forum discussion that the SAL tried to have Meteor cosists comprised of Stainless steel cars, as we can see here, PRR would add cars not necessarily stainless, But nevertheless, an eighteen car consist during August was indeed impressive..
  by Gilbert B Norman
By 1962, even the CB&Q was being affected by declining patronage and a need to reduce train miles. This resulted in four trains operating between Chicago and St Paul to be reduced to three. WB the trains were Morning Zephyr, North Coast Limited, and Empire Builder/Afternoon Zephyr. EB they Were combined Empire Builder/North Coast Limited, Morning and Afternoon Zephyrs. Suffice to say, the combined Builder North Coast made for quite an impressive train; here is a consist of such observed on arrival at Chicago Union Station on April 23, 1962:

E-7 (unknown; pulled forward to Track 19)
NP Bagg 212
GN Bagg 1205
Buffet 1240 Crossley Lake
SP&S Dome Coach 1332
GN Dome Coach 1328
Coach 1373
Diner 1251 Lake Wenatchaee
CB&Q Dome Lounge 1395 River View
GN 4SEC 1CP 3BR 7DX Sleeper 1271 Fraser River
6RM 5BR 2CP 1383 Inuya Pass
NP Slumbercoach 24-8 329 Loch Ness
Dome Coach 556
Buffet 498 Travelers Rest
CB&Q Dome Coach 558
NP Diner 454
6RM 4BR 8DX Sleeper 368
4RM 4BR 4DX Dome Sleeper 308
4BR 1CP Obs 394 ex Montana Club. .

Regarding the Sleeper configurations, apparently it was simply not “the Northerns” style to order the more garden variety 10-6’s and 4-4-2’s. Why I know not. Obviously both roads saw a need for more economical accommodations than did either ATSF or UP.. The epitome of such of course was the introduction of the Slumbercoach on the North Coast.
  by Gilbert B Norman
MILW 103 April 24, 1962 - rode Chicago to Marion

UP E-9 952A
UP Bagg 5756
Dorm 5613
SP Coach 2438
UP Diner Lounge 5008
Dome Coach 7000
Coach 5497
10-6 Pacific Range
Dome Diner 8001
Dome Lounge 9005
11BR Placid Vale
5-2-2-Ocean Sands
4-4-3 Imperial Rose
10-6 SP 9045

This consist shows that even during a "shoulder" travel period, the combined City of San Francisco/LA still represented a healthy consist.

On a final note, this concludes my regular "tenth of the month" participation at this topic. Honestly, 'the creek is dry" although I will continue to "fine tooth comb" such for possible submission; I have other consists in my files, but they simply do not meet my standards , i.e. the date observed or ridden is not recorded. I have some post-Amtrak consists, but the intent of my reporting here is to address the pre-Amtrak era.

Somehow had I known that a young railfan's hobby collection compiled likely 45 years ago would ever be shared with the railfan/rail travel community worldwide, I would have been far more conscientious recording such.

It has been a great journey, but the Adios drumhead has now been lit and the Conductor is giving the highball.
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