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How wind can power the world's mass transit

Discussion about railroad topics everywhere outside of Canada and the United States.

Moderators: Komachi, David Benton

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Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1453426  by george matthews
 
Semaphore Sam wrote:I think, ultimately, neither coal, nor oil, nor wind, nor nuclear, solar panels, nor any of the other "renewable" or "non-renewable" sources will provide the best solution(s)...Mr. Nikola Tesla's ideas, very radical, have not been adequately followed up. His 19th and 20th century visions could make the above energy sources obsolete. Railways would be a major beneficiary, among many others.

https://futurism.com/10-ideas-that-prov ... n-history/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tesla seems to have inspired a cult following in the US - but nowhere else. There is no reason to take his ideas seriously.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1453614  by Semaphore Sam
 
Yeah, George, I guess you're right...the world should give up Tesla's pie-in-the-sky idea of Alternating Current, and go back to the basic DC power supply for railways...AC was always a Tesla foolish dream, like all his ideas. Sam

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1453627  by george matthews
 
Semaphore Sam wrote:Yeah, George, I guess you're right...the world should give up Tesla's pie-in-the-sky idea of Alternating Current, and go back to the basic DC power supply for railways...AC was always a Tesla foolish dream, like all his ideas. Sam
Most railways use AC already. That has nothing at all to do with Tesla or his cultish followers. AC was decided on in Britain, and the rest of Europe, in the 1950s for good technical reasons. The legacy lines of different voltages were gradually converted. There are now only two systems in use in Britain. The 750v DC lines exist only on the third rail networks, mainly in the south of England. All the electrified main lines are now AC using the system that is prescribed by European standards. In the rest of Europe new electrifications follow the AC model. There are still large amounts of legacy lines, as in parts of France and in Belgium and the Netherlands - and of course the large amount of non-standard AC lines in Germany and parts of Scandinavia.

This of course has nothing at all to do with the role of wind power, which is always fed into the various national grids - themselves usually linked across national borders.

Compared with Europe the US does not have a modern rail network. What remains is stuck in the 1950s with hardly any modern developments since then. That is my observation from travelling on the remaining passenger network there - very slow and not very frequent. The electrified lines use ancient systems which ought to be totally renewed to modern standards.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1453699  by David Benton
 
Nikola Tesla has a worldwide following, and his early work was indeed the basis of modern induction A.c motors. Many Modern alternative thinkers are attracted to some of his more way out ideas, which probably gives him a reputation that does not do him justice. You have to remember the era he was working in, it was all "way out".
What the modern Tesla company has to do with that , I am not sure.
Tesla would probably look at a modern a.c traction locomotive and say , see i told you so .

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1453702  by george matthews
 
It may well be that Tesla himself was not as cultish as his ignorant followers. But even if he had some ideas useful for his time, engineering and science has moved on since then. The railway industries in countries where rail is still developing all have important research institutions which develop new systems, and then install them. The striking thing about the US is that they don't. Thus some people - mainly in the US - are stuck in the past fantasising about past proposals which have been either implemented elsewhere or proved useless.

The important problem being discussed in this thread is whether rail transport can be powered by systems that don't emit CO2. Yes, it can. The power supplies that don't emit CO2 have been developed, and continue to be, without any influence by Tesla. His importance is purely historic.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1455323  by george matthews
 
johnthefireman wrote:UK enjoyed 'greenest year for electricity ever' in 2017
Yes, Britain has made some important developments in this field and has seriously reduced CO2 emissions. May it continue to do so. The same is true of most European countries. Huge increases in wind power are being proposed. For example there was a report in the last few days for a new wind island in the English Channel which would be capable of sending power to several neighbouring countries.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1456379  by MCL1981
 
It goes a mile. lol. And of course, it actually says nothing about how long it takes to recharge the batteries.. during which time the train is out of service or running on diesel. But I'm sure that information was left out by accident....

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1456391  by johnthefireman
 
Glass half empty, glass half full. It seems you see the former, I see the latter. You apparently sneer at the prospect of possibilities beyond the status quo, whereas I see small but incremental steps in both attitudes and technology which will eventually lead to major advances. Remember people sneered at many new technologies which we now take for granted.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1456395  by David Benton
 
MCL1981 wrote:It goes a mile. lol. And of course, it actually says nothing about how long it takes to recharge the batteries.. during which time the train is out of service or running on diesel. But I'm sure that information was left out by accident....
Looks like you didnt read the article. The batteries are charged from solar panels on the station roof in between runs. The batteries are large enough to do 12 runs. It is also a grid interactive system, when the solar is not been used to charge batteries it is pumped back into the grid, when there is not enough solar to charge the batteries , grid power is used. Diesel is the last option , probably emergency use only. As John says, it is more about education and trying things out.
Thpough it doesn't mention it in the article , I would't be surprised if an Australian University was involved with this. They do a lot of this kind of research , the solar car race form Darwin was university organised. Probably still is , only difference nowadays, The resulting technology is borught by Chinese companies , and made in China .

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1456396  by johnthefireman
 
Thanks, David. It's also worth noting that in the UK (and perhaps elsewhere) trials have been done by mainstream railway companies on the normal rail network with standard EMUs converted to run on batteries. Technology for charging the batteries exists. While on these trials charging was from the national grid (which in UK already contains a significant percentage of renewable energy), the battery technology is the same whatever the source of the electricity, whether 100% renewable or 100% fossil fuels or anything in between.

Re: How wind can power the world's mass transit

 #1456424  by george matthews
 
johnthefireman wrote:Thanks, David. It's also worth noting that in the UK (and perhaps elsewhere) trials have been done by mainstream railway companies on the normal rail network with standard EMUs converted to run on batteries. Technology for charging the batteries exists. While on these trials charging was from the national grid (which in UK already contains a significant percentage of renewable energy), the battery technology is the same whatever the source of the electricity, whether 100% renewable or 100% fossil fuels or anything in between.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU

It's a long time - 1966 - since the battery electric train introduced in 1958 ran from Aberdeen to Ballater, the station that served Balmoral. The line was also used for the Royal Train on the monarch's regular summer vacation there. I think the electric train was successful, though the branch closed in 1966. I should think the branch was chosen to test the battery system because the trains ran with fairly long intervals between trips, giving plenty of time for recharging the then early batteries. Modern batteries can be recharged quicker. The actual vehicle was a normal 2 car British Rail DMU modified by replacing the diesel system with a battery system. The Royal train of course used steam and then diesel traction. Nowadays the royals may travel to Aberdeen and transfer to road vehicles.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/in-pictur ... -1-3950421

Electrification with overhead power supply is only justifiable on lines with a frequent service, but it is possible that battery powered rail cars may have a future, allowing trains to operate on lesser lines without emitting CO2. I can think of a line in Wausau, Wisconsin in the US which might be suitable. Passenger service ceased many years ago but perhaps could be revived. If Americans took seriously the need to cut CO2 emissions they could find many uses for battery technology.
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