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Discussion about railroad topics everywhere outside of Canada and the United States.

Moderators: Komachi, David Benton

 #144953  by David Benton
 
I have not started a topic on this as yet because, 1, very little information has been avaliable to discuss , 2 , its likely to get controversial .
There is discussion going on in the amtrak forum , and some may like to copy and paste their posts here .
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15350

Please bear in mind that this is the "worldwide forum " , with possible viewers from all countries and religions . Any racist , political or religious abuse will be removed .
Last edited by David Benton on Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #144954  by David Benton
 
My thoughts with the victims and thier families .
But i hope this doesnt put anybody off using public transport , or travelling in general . If it does the terroists have achieved thier objective . like wise i hope it doesnt prompt governments to impose un reasonable restrictions on thier citizens movements and actions .
i passed through kings cross station about an hour before the terrible fire some 15 or so years ago . Whilst it gave me an erie feeling using that station after the fire ( you could still smell the smoke some weeks afterwards ) , it never put me off travelling on the underground .
you are far safer travelling on any form of public transport than in a private auto , or even walking the streets , even with the attacks .
 #144980  by george matthews
 
David Benton wrote:My thoughts with the victims and thier families .
But i hope this doesnt put anybody off using public transport , or travelling in general . If it does the terroists have achieved thier objective . like wise i hope it doesnt prompt governments to impose un reasonable restrictions on thier citizens movements and actions .
i passed through kings cross station about an hour before the terrible fire some 15 or so years ago . Whilst it gave me an erie feeling using that station after the fire ( you could still smell the smoke some weeks afterwards ) , it never put me off travelling on the underground .
you are far safer travelling on any form of public transport than in a private auto , or even walking the streets , even with the attacks .
I think I may have been over-pessimistic about how long it will take to get the damaged trains out of where they are. But some of them will have to be cut up. The deep tube train on the Piccadilly line will be the most difficult. The police say they are worried about the tunnel itself, though no rail person has commented on that yet. Possibly the Piccadilly line will need major tunnel repairs. If so it will be closed for weeks certainly.
The police say the amount of high explosive in each bomb was less than ten pounds. I have no idea of what that means but it suggests major structural damage is less likely than if the bombs had been bigger.
The events were of about the same power as many IRA bombs, though the IRA never did damage the rail system in London. In Northern Ireland they used to damage the track regularly. I was once turfed off the Dublin-Belfast train at the Border and transfered to a bus. It was clear the bus operation was well practiced. The IRA did once explose a bus, but that seems to have been an "own-goal" - an accident.

 #145041  by David Benton
 
i imagine it will be quite a job , clearing the tunnels .
are there turning facilites nearby ?, so they can run trains on parts of the route , but not right through . I know the Northern line can turn trains at intetmediate stations . i'm not so familiar with the picadily line .
 #145119  by Komachi
 
I will reiterate what David said at the top of this post and what I have posted in the rules, there will be NO racial, religious or otherwise derogatory remarks tolerated in this forum.


Now, a question for George, or anyone else who might know a thing or two about the tube...

The portion of the underground (subway) that is under King's Cross station is part of the original system built in 1853, or thereabouts, right? I know those are some well-built structures, but I'm currious to know if they were ever reinforced during the last century or if they were left as-is more or less? That would explain how the tunnels were seriously damaged in the explosions... I don't think reinforced concrete would have suffered as much structural damage, but I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't say with any degree of certainty on that.

Just currious about that.


And now for something a little off topic...

I worked a shift at the radio station tonight, and not finding an instrumental version of "America the Beautiful" (which uses the same melody as "God Save the Queen/King)," I read the lyrics to "God Save the Queen/King" in tribute to the injured/killed in the attacks. I have great respect for the British and my thoughts/prayers are with you.

 #145125  by george matthews
 
David Benton wrote:i imagine it will be quite a job , clearing the tunnels .
are there turning facilites nearby ?, so they can run trains on parts of the route , but not right through . I know the Northern line can turn trains at intetmediate stations . i'm not so familiar with the picadily line .
Today, Saturday, they say the Piccadilly line is operating in two segments. From the west trains are running as far as Hyde Park Corner. From the North as far as Arnos Grove. This means that trains are running from Heathrow into the West End.
The Circle Lie is not running. The District Line is running normally, but not the branch to Edgware, obviously.
This morning the police say they still have not entered the carriage that had the bomb but have stated that the situation there is "chaos". I can well imagine that the carriage was blown to pieces and blocks the whole tunnel. The tunnels are only just large enough for the trains and even at the best of times there is very little space between the train and the walls.
One problem is rats eating the bodies. It is going to be very difficult to deal with the Piccadilly train. Perhaps some of it is still on the rails. Maybe, eventually that part can be towed away. The rest is supposed to be examined as a Crime Scene before any action, but presumably the engineers have to examine the tunnel lining.

 #145126  by george matthews
 
Komachi wrote:
Now, a question for George, or anyone else who might know a thing or two about the tube...

The portion of the underground (subway) that is under King's Cross station is part of the original system built in 1853, or thereabouts, right? I know those are some well-built structures, but I'm currious to know if they were ever reinforced during the last century or if they were left as-is more or less? That would explain how the tunnels were seriously damaged in the explosions... I don't think reinforced concrete would have suffered as much structural damage, but I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't say with any degree of certainty on that.
I don't know the history of the tunnels. Most tunnels seem to be lined with iron, perhaps cast iron. There may well have been major work on them during the 1930s. (I saw a book on the history of that line yesterday in the market but did not look at it in detail.)
I have not seen any comments by rail engineers on the situation. The police may be being ultra-cautious, but they have had people down there so they may be right to fear collapse.

 #145128  by David Benton
 
tonights news here showed a drivers eye view from a train leaving kings cross towards russell square ( taken before the bomb obviously )
the tunnel does appear to be of the cast iron type construction , round , with ribs , bolted together . there would not be much clearnace form the trains .
There appeared to be several crossovers leaving kings cross , so it may be possible to turn trains at kingscross .
obviuosly they would want to keep operational trains well away form the emergncey operation at this stage though .

 #145134  by george matthews
 
David Benton wrote:tonights news here showed a drivers eye view from a train leaving kings cross towards russell square ( taken before the bomb obviously )
the tunnel does appear to be of the cast iron type construction , round , with ribs , bolted together . there would not be much clearnace form the trains .
There appeared to be several crossovers leaving kings cross , so it may be possible to turn trains at kingscross .
obviously they would want to keep operational trains well away form the emergncey operation at this stage though .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 47,00.html
The latest news, from the Guardian, is that London Underground hope to tow away the five carriages of the Piccadilly train, presumably undamaged. This will allow easier access to the destroyed carriage.
The reports emphasise the heat down there. In a hot period the Underground is always very hot and only tolerable if trains are moving. (Earlier this year they had a competition for ideas on cooling the system. No viable ideas emerged, other than opening the windows at night, putting more fans in the ventilation shafts). The cutting equipment they are to bring in will increase the heat still more.
It seems there are no longer fears of a tunnel collapse but the bombed carriage is very seriously damaged.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4666591.stm
 #145211  by geoffs
 
george matthews wrote:The events were of about the same power as many IRA bombs, though the IRA never did damage the rail system in London.
Without looking up for the details, I can recall these IRA (or affiliated groups) attacks on the rail system in London:

Piccadilly Line, Wood Green, at least one car destroyed.

Metropolitan Line (now Hammersmith and City Line), West Ham, one C69 car destroyed.

Bomb on Southern Region train approaching Cannon St.

Bombs at Euston station destroying burger bar.

More recently unexploded devices found at Ealing and Stratford.

Edit: A Google search of IRA London attacks brings up many more (some bombs were detected and defused and fire bombs planted under seats were discovered before going off).
Last edited by geoffs on Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #145216  by george matthews
 
geoffs wrote:
george matthews wrote:The events were of about the same power as many IRA bombs, though the IRA never did damage the rail system in London.
Without looking up for the details, I can recall these IRA (or affiliated groups) attacks on the rail system in London:

Piccadilly Line, Wood Green, at least one car destroyed.

Metropolitan Line (now Hammersmith and City Line), East Ham, one C69 car destroyed.

Bomb on Southern Region train approaching Blackfrairs.

Bombs at Euston station destroying burger bar.

More recently unexploded devices found at Ealing and Stratford.
They never bombed in any of the tunnel sections.
 #145246  by geoffs
 
Komachi wrote:Now, a question for George, or anyone else who might know a thing or two about the tube...

The portion of the underground (subway) that is under King's Cross station is part of the original system built in 1853, or thereabouts, right?
Kings Cross has several separate underground lines, the original system built by "cut and cover" with brick side linings passes through here (Metropolitan, Circle and Hammersmith lines) but the Piccadilly (where the bombed train was) and other lines at Kings Cross are deep level tube with bored tube segment type construction. The other two Underground bombs were on the original cut and cover system at other locations to the east and west of Kings Cross.
 #145251  by geoffs
 
george matthews wrote:They never bombed in any of the tunnel sections.
"Piccadilly Line, Wood Green, at least one car destroyed."

This was in a tunnelled section in 1976.

 #145261  by David Benton
 
thanks for the info and links , George and Geoff .

As a former fitter/ welder , i can imagine what the heat would be like .( thnakfuly i never encountered anything like this ) . Probably onl y be able ot work 15 minutes or so at a time , then rest for 15 , made even more difficult by the long walk to the site .
I guess the underground has maintenance equipment of some kind that may make access easier .
What do they do if a train breaks down ?tow it with another train ?
 #145262  by David Benton
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_i ... D=10335096

Times like this , you realsie what an "international" city London is .
many people living or working there from the "ex colonies " such as New Zealand and Australia .And of course a huge tourist influx at this time of the year from all over the world .
While the impact here is nowhere as bad as it must be in England , many people i ve talked to know someone who was on the way to work in london that morning .
we also have the British lions , and Prince William visiting here at the moment .