FTA grants - how long is the obligation?

[Paul1705]

If a transit agency receives Federal funding, how long is the agency obligated to operate or maintain a service before being allowed to abandon the service without penalty?

This probably doesn't become an issue very often, but there have been a few cases where services that never had Federal support were dropped for various reasons. The ones I can think of include OnTrack in Syracuse, the Champlain Flyer in Vermont and the heritage trolley in Detroit.

[eolesen]

That's probably going to be grant specific... The language I've seen claws back funds if construction targets aren't met, but I've never seen anything specific that says "if you don't operate it for X years, you pay us back.." Government isn't usually that forward thinking.

[electricron]

That's probably going to be grant specific... The language I've seen claws back funds if construction targets aren't met, but I've never seen anything specific that says "if you don't operate it for X years, you pay us back.." Government isn't usually that forward thinking.

I'll agree with that, but I would like to add additional comments.
To get that grant in the first place, an EIS had to be done which included the preferred alternate for that corridor. If the preferred alternate for that project got built assisted with federal grants, but the program went bust for whatever reason, do not come back wishing the federal government to provide grants for an alternate solution that did not pass muster the first time. It will be a while before you will see additional grants for that specific corridor. The federal government may not be great at forward looking, but it is great looking and remembering backwards.

[mtuandrew]

There is a point before which any Federal funds are forfeit, yes, but I don’t know what it/they might be. I might be confusing this with FRA grants, but I believe I’ve read about instances in which an agency got grants for equipment that they took out of service early, but had to store for several years before scrapping in order to meet the Federal longevity requirements.

As stated above, the actual grant paperwork would be the place to look. Do you have a specific example in mind?

[Nasadowsk]

I know of a county that built a bus garage with FTA funding, and recently wanted to close it, the FTA told them if they did, they'd have to give the FTA money back. And it had been there a about 20 years at that point. I don't remember how it got resolved...

[Paul1705]

There is a point before which any Federal funds are forfeit, yes, but I don’t know what it/they might be. I might be confusing this with FRA grants, but I believe I’ve read about instances in which an agency got grants for equipment that they took out of service early, but had to store for several years before scrapping in order to meet the Federal longevity requirements.

As stated above, the actual grant paperwork would be the place to look. Do you have a specific example in mind?

I'm not thinking of anything in the immediate future. I was considering the examples of the Syracuse and Vermont commuter trains for which all service was ended. There are a few rail projects of similar extent like the Nashville commuter line and Westside Express in Portland which I think did get Federal funding. I was guessing that when the time comes for equipment renewal, maybe a decade or more from now, the operating agencies may lose interest in continuing them. Of course the local politics of those places comes into play.

[mtuandrew]

I think I’m thinking of the NJT ALP-44s and Comet IIIs, which are unusable & unsellable due to Hurricane Sandy, and unscrappable due to what I believe are Federal funding requirements. That would be an FRA grant though.

[Paul1705]

I think I’m thinking of the NJT ALP-44s and Comet IIIs, which are unusable & unsellable due to Hurricane Sandy, and unscrappable due to what I believe are Federal funding requirements. That would be an FRA grant though.

I thought the NJ Transit equipment was eventually repaired, bit off-hand I'm not sure.

I wasn't really thinking of equipment, but rather entire routes (or replacing them with buses). I don't think an agency would close a new rail route within the first ten years or so. But if ridership keeps dropping in many cities (which is a topic in itself), then by about fifteen years out something like Austin's MetroRail or Nashville's Music City Star might be vulnerable. I don't mean to pick on those places, but I think they have two of he lowest patronage rail systems in the country.

Analogies might be Pittsburgh's PATrain or Detroit's SEMTA which which were ended in the 1980s. Those were based on previously existing services and I doubt that any Federal money went into them. But there didn't seem to been any effective protests against their discontinuance.

[R36 Combine Coach]

I think I’m thinking of the NJT ALP-44s and Comet IIIs, which are unusable & unsellable due to Hurricane Sandy, and unscrappable due to what I believe are Federal funding requirements. That would be an FRA grant though.

I thought the NJ Transit equipment was eventually repaired, bit off-hand I'm not sure.

The ALP44s and Comet IIIs in 1990 were non-federal orders, the former via an international bank leaseback (cannot be scrapped until the lease agreement with the foreign owner is up). Same applies to the mothballed HHP8s.

Many Multilevels (and also the ALP46s) were purchased through foreign financing (PANYNJ also funded much of the Multilevel coaches and many NJT MCI commuter buses in the 1980s).

[electricron]

I thought the NJ Transit equipment was eventually repaired, bit off-hand I'm not sure.

I wasn't really thinking of equipment, but rather entire routes (or replacing them with buses). I don't think an agency would close a new rail route within the first ten years or so. But if ridership keeps dropping in many cities (which is a topic in itself), then by about fifteen years out something like Austin's MetroRail or Nashville's Music City Star might be vulnerable. I don't mean to pick on those places, but I think they have two of he lowest patronage rail systems in the country.

Analogies might be Pittsburgh's PATrain or Detroit's SEMTA which which were ended in the 1980s. Those were based on previously existing services and I doubt that any Federal money went into them. But there didn't seem to been any effective protests against their discontinuance.

Austin's MetroRail was not funded by the FTA or the FRA. All initial funding came from their own sales tax revenues, CapMetro's railroad freight revenues, and CapMetro's operation's fares.
The only federal money they might have received may have been for bus operations, certainly not for rail operations.
I'm not familiar with Nashville's Music City Star. But Denton County Transit Authority A-Train was also funded exclusively with local funds, no funds coming from the federal or state governments.
So not every train transit system in the USA had federal funding grants, and they are free to do whatever they wish without strings attached from afar in D.C.