Holdout Signals

[WX4JCW]

a dumb question but never really cared about it, what is a Holdout, we have several here (signaled locations) Palatka, Pine Castle, Kissimmee, and Poinciana, just curious

[Ocala Mike]

Didn't know, so I googled the term "holdout signal," and got this:

•Holdout Signal - A controlled point containing only a signal and no turnouts, diamonds or other appliances. Typically they appear to be an ordinary block signal with no number plate, although they can also be an interlocking that has had all of its turnouts or other appliances removed. In the latter case, there may still be indications of NWK for the missing switches.

[WX4JCW]

forgot google was my friend, thanks

[roadster]

Precisely what it sounds like. An absolute signal, controled by the dispatcher at a location where a train can be held out of an area where it will not interfere with another trains movements for switching operations, or simply because the yard can't handle the train. Generally a single track mainline thing. Since "automatic" or intermediate/distant signals are not disp. controled.

[Ocala Mike]

Another dumb question: what does NWK mean? Please don't say Newark!

[Bobinchesco]

Another dumb question: what does NWK mean? Please don't say Newark!

NWK = Normal Switch indication

[ExCon90]

I just remembered another use of a hold signal: On the PRR at North Philadelphia, the Chestnut Hill branch makes a sharp left outbound immediately prior to the station to serve its own platforms almost perpendicular to the main tracks. If a clocker from New York was running a little late, the operator at North Philadelphia tower could let the local cross the westbound tracks to make his station stop at the branch platform. At the outbound end of the platform was a controlled home signal (no number plate, Stop means Stop) which the operator would use to hold the local in the station. When the clocker arrived, the operator could observe from the tower when passengers descended the stairs and emerged on the branch platform, at which time he would clear the signal, allowing the conductor to give two to go when all passengers had boarded. Not a word spoken, everybody knew just what was happening. The signal is an automatic today, and there aren't any clockers any more.

[edbear]

The Boston & Maine had a "Holding Signal" in its rulebook. There was one at Parker Street, South Acton, MA on the Boston-South Acton-Ayer route. It was installed after the line was single tracked from South Acton to Willows about 1966. If the westbound interlocking signal at South Acton displayed a stop inidication, freight trains exceeding 60 cars had to hold back behind the Holding Signal so as not the block the Parker Street crossing. Shorter freights and passenger trains could pull up to the South Acton interlocking. The signal was automatic and conveyed the indication of the South Acton interlocking. Trains that did not have to Hold could proceed at a speed governed by whatever the automatic signals displayed, probably approach medium, approach and then stop. They were position light signals and in 1968 they were also located at Ballardvale, MA southbound, Newfields, NH northbound, Worcester, MA and southbound Saco,ME.

[ExCon90]

I just remembered another one: there is a controlled home signal at the bottom of the grade in the south tube of the North River tunnels governing eastward movement toward Penn Station. If a heavy train is approaching and it is not possible to clear a route right into the platform, the train can be held at that signal (it now has a name, but I forget what it is), with the entire length of the train on the downgrade, so that when a route does open up, the weight of the train on the downgrade will give the engine a shove to help get it started, thus avoiding stopping a heavy train on an upgrade immediately outside the interlocking at Penn Station.

[Ocala Mike]

Is that called Bergen? Allied?

[ThirdRail7]

I just remembered another one: there is a controlled home signal at the bottom of the grade in the south tube of the North River tunnels governing eastward movement toward Penn Station. If a heavy train is approaching and it is not possible to clear a route right into the platform, the train can be held at that signal (it now has a name, but I forget what it is), with the entire length of the train on the downgrade, so that when a route does open up, the weight of the train on the downgrade will give the engine a shove to help get it started, thus avoiding stopping a heavy train on an upgrade immediately outside the interlocking at Penn Station.

Is that called Bergen? Allied?

It's called CP MID.

AS for North Philadelphia INT, wasn't that signal there to protect a left handed crossover that extended the limits of the actual interlocking?

[ExCon90]

All I can say is I never noticed a crossover there, at least in later years, although I was never a regular rider of that branch. Also, there should have been a dwarf signal on the adjacent track, and I don't recall ever seeing one (or maybe I should say noticing one).

[ThirdRail7]

All I can say is I never noticed a crossover there, at least in later years, although I was never a regular rider of that branch. Also, there should have been a dwarf signal on the adjacent track, and I don't recall ever seeing one (or maybe I should say noticing one).

I don't know when you traversed the line, but I have the old track chart. It was a RIGHT HANDED crossover that was past the station heading towadr Chestnul Hill West. When you stopped in the station, you were within the interlocking limits of North Philadelphia, so ther ewas no dwarf protecting the adjacent switch. This is because that was abnormal move. When North Philadelphia interlocking was broken up, they got rid of the switch. Eventually, they made the signals automatic under Septa's control.

[ExCon90]

Yeah, my memory is pretty hazy on that track layout. And thanks for the name MID; I had an idea it was something like MIDWAY, and of course they couldn't call it that.

[CSXT7590]

A holdout is for trains to hold the main when stopped. The signals are normal. Usually where a train meets.
It doesnt mean the train will stop, holdouts may include crossovers from main to main or a running track into a yard or siding track. A holdout protects the entrances to yards and normally provides enough to length to enter a yard.

Mike