Catskill Mountain Railroad (CMRR) Discussion - 2018

[lvrr325]

I didn't say I approve of it, just that it's not unusual for outright imbeciles to get voted into office and create new disasters where none were before, either through their ineptitude or because they are corrupt to whatever degree - or even both.

I'm sure you can look at national politics and think of your own examples of people who not only inexplicably got elected, but keep getting re-elected.

[airman00]

I get your point now, I must have misunderstood you. In any event, yes Ulster County has really stepped in it this time! And one thing that will bite the county in the butt, is their stubborn refusal to negotiate. The CMRR tried to negotiate and the county said no. It was just agree to our terms or nothing! And now the STB has recommended mediation and the U&D Railway group said yes to mediation, and ulster county rejected that and said no to mediation. What that means is now the county is essentially forcing the STB to render a decision. And with this Friday the 23rd being the deadline for the petition to be heard, oh boy are things getting very interesting!

[BandA]

The cost of buying replacement rail & all new ties & professional paid installation for the area removed could be quite expensive for the county.

I assume the rail-bikes don't count as a railroad service in the eyes of the stb... and that class 1 maintenance isn't required for railbikes?

[airman00]

I checked the U&D Facebook page for the results of the petition since Ulster County was to present their case before the STB on Friday the 23. And someone had already asked what the result was and the U&D said this:

“They submitted a 816 page reply that is full of unrelated unimportant facts and only about 32 pages of information that might be considered important”

(They means ulster county) So I guess we continue to wait...

[lvrr325]

The comments on the facebook post were interesting.

It seems one problem the CMR has is they never went official with the 1980s freight service, trying to fly under the radar as a hobby railroad and avoid scrutiny that would have created big problems for their operations. At least that's what someone claimed there. But it all seemed to boil down to whether or not Penn Central completed the paperwork before they transferred the line to the county.

[BandA]

Ulster & Delaware Railway Revitalization Corp atty. John D Heffner asks for more time: https://www.stb.gov/Filings/all.nsf/WEB ... 245220.pdf

I will be out of the office starting Feb. 26 and returning March 12 for longstanding engagements. In that regard, I will be attending a conference on the West Coast on Feb. 25-27. After that I have scheduled a vacation in Costa Rica returning to the Washington area Saturday evening March 10. It is my understanding the internet access including email capability is unreliable. The Reply filed by Ulster County is roughly 4 inches thick. Accordingly, it will be difficult for me to review all of the materials comprising its reply, consult with the client, and prepare a response within the time allowed by the rules. I believe that a short extension of 10 days will
be sufficient and will not delay these proceedings. I have sought the County's consent only to be refused. I appreciate the Board's attention to this request

(emphasis added)

Ulster County's Atty snarks back:

While this responsive pleading would be a reply to a reply and therefore barred under the Board' s rules, 49 C.F.R. § 1104.13(c), in the event the Board accepts U&D's filing, the County consents to a seven-day extension instead. The County also reserves its right to respond to any U&D responsive pleading if the Board permits the filing.

Why would a reply not be allowed (for a 4" document) but there is a deadline for the reply?

And of course the public can't see the 4" Dodgy Dossier....

[Otto Vondrak]

And of course the public can't see the 4" Dodgy Dossier....

The county's filing is indeed public, have fun:

https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7 ... 3c0079710d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-otto-

[scoostraw]

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." - W.C. Fields

[YamaOfParadise]

I'd love to see the fees the County paid for such a reply to be compiled. Lawyers aren't cheap... and, ~816 pages?

[airman00]

Latest press release is out...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/ud-railw ... 576073249/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t know if I quite get it all... sounds like mixed results so far? And the court decision... The county was able to get a judge to deny the stop work order, simply because they said they were 95% complete with rail removal? Shouldn’t they have to show proof, not just word of mouth? And IF the U&D had proof that via aireil photos that the rail removal was only at 50% why wasn’t that brought up in court?

[BandA]

I've read about 10% of the giant document.

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." - W.C. Fields

The county is setting up backup arguments in case they lose the STB declares the railroad non-abandoned. They are throwing in everything including the kitchen sink and seeing if it sticks to the wall. Very sleezy lawyer-like.

So, how do you lease an abandoned railroad for 25 years to a railroad?

The county allegedly bought an abandoned railroad.... from a railroad. For use as a railroad.

The NYDEP wouldn't possibly allow fill to be added to the ROW inside the reservoir property. Or allow work near a brook. But the railroad has a permanent easement, so of course they can work on their ROW. How wide is the ROW easement through the reservoir?

Towns objected to the original abandonment, which was abandoned due to "flaws". How were their objections resolved during the "second" abandonment process?

Was the CMRR regulated by the FRA or the state of NY? Did the county inform the CMRR that it was operating on a supposedly abandoned line? Were FRA inspectors ever onsite?

I read that the CMRR briefly provided some freight service in Kingston, connected to the national rail network. Does this constitute "unabandoning", and how does that work?

[lvrr325]

On the freight service, per posts to the Facebook page, again, the CMR never dotted all the Is and crossed all the Ts to run the freight service because it would have caused a bunch of problems with regard to things like hours of service laws, because most of the people working there had other jobs too. I forget the exact wording other than they hoped to fly under the radar as a hobby railroad. So that is hurting them to some degree now, although the fact remains they did perform the service.

[Alcoman]

The comments on the facebook post were interesting.

It seems one problem the CMR has is they never went official with the 1980s freight service, trying to fly under the radar as a hobby railroad and avoid scrutiny that would have created big problems for their operations. At least that's what someone claimed there. But it all seemed to boil down to whether or not Penn Central completed the paperwork before they transferred the line to the county.

That could be changing soon as the CMRR has submitted a letter of intent to the County to begin Freight Service to a Lumber Co and a gravel Company. Others are eyeing the return of the service. The railroad could be looking at 200-300 cars a year and more if they successfully get CSX to reconnect the switch.

[scoostraw]

How does CMRR propose to provide service on trackage that they do not have access to?

[BR&P]

The railroad could be looking at 200-300 cars a year and more if they successfully get CSX to reconnect the switch.

How many cars a year does it take to get CSX interested these days? 5 cars a week hardly warrants stopping a through freight to make the setoff and pickup to them.