Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2014

[traingeek8223]

the trail will attract a whole new group of trail users

Says who? You know in all my years of traveling around the State, I have never run into someone that said "I'm not going to go to the Adirondacks until they build more trails". There are already more then can be easily done in a lifetime. I have met plenty (and not just in the railroad community) that ARE waiting for trough train service to return to Lake Placid. Many of them are not fortunate enough to be able-bodied enough to see the park as it is currently accessible. Your group would have them travel over stone dust in their wheel chairs and walkers though.

that can for free use the corridor 24/7 = 365 days and not just when the train happens to be running with a fare requested.

Except when it is raining, or black fly season, or mud season, or not enough snow in the winter, or biggest of all- when the trail remains incomplete because you guys grossly underestimate the cost of build out and NYS doesn't pay for the project like you are planning (do the taxpayer-sympathetic supporters you have know that you still plan on using their money?). And once again, where will the money to maintain it come from?

I'm sure that most who will read this will not see this as a compromise position.

Because it's not a compromise. It is a win for you and a loss for the railroad. It is also a waste of the money that went into track restoration between Thendara and Lake Placid (remember all the bridges that were rebuilt). You say taxpayer money has been wasted on this project. That is only true if your group is successful in tearing it out. You keep telling us your plan is a compromise and we are supposed to believe you, despite common sense telling us otherwise. You seem stuck on the notion that we are all "just playing with trains" and you miss the fact that ARPS was created to preserve the corridor as a railroad and we are here to see the goal of restoration of rail service to Lake Placid. Maybe you are just "Playing with trails". Start working on a true compromise or risk ending up with nothing. A parallel and diverging trail is the only real compromise.

[Scott K]

Matt, (and everyone else), you're all wasting your figurative breath. Haven't you noticed all the "Will"s and "When"s Tony keeps using? He seems to believe ARTA is absolutely guaranteed to get what they want. I say, just ignore him from now on, all he comes here to do is provoke us. He's not interested in any facts but his own.

Scott K.

[Matt Langworthy]

The property is owned by the State of New York. It's up to State officials to decide what use of this corridor will most benefit the taxpayers who bought this rail corridor. We, ARTA, are totally confident that the scrap value will fund most, if not all, of the initial surfacing from Lake Placid to Tupper Lake. What we can't afford is to try to bring a meandering route that diverges from the corridor up to the level that we believe will attract a whole new group of trail users

Amusing. Tony, http://visitadirondacks.com/recreation/snowmobiling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is reporting the Adirondacks has over 2000 miles of trails for hiking. http://www.adirondack.net/winter/snowmobile-trails.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://visitadirondacks.com/recreation/snowmobiling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; indicate there is well over 1000 miles of snowmobile trails... including the Moose River area. Your premise of attracting a new group of trail users is highly illogical. Nobody is avoiding the Adirondacks because the ADIX ROW still hasd rails and trains.

Also, your so-called compromise is no compromise at all. It is a rather lame attempt at bullying rail enthusiasts into submission. You think that getting everything you want north of Thendara is fair, when it clearly is not.

[traingeek8223]

Matt, (and everyone else), you're all wasting your figurative breath. Haven't you noticed all the "Will"s and "When"s Tony keeps using? He seems to believe ARTA is absolutely guaranteed to get what they want. I say, just ignore him from now on, all he comes here to do is provoke us. He's not interested in any facts but his own.

I agree with this in principal and even practiced it for a while, but quite frankly I've grown tired of him spouting off with no rebuttal. The BS that is being spit out needs to be countered. He is banking on us not responding so the people that come here and aren't knowledgeable on the subject will start to believe it. At no point do I ever expect to "win" the argument or change Tony's mind at all. He in no way thinks his plan is bad (that is his opinion and he is entitled to it). I also won't go away and let their propaganda spread though. A lesson in futility? Maybe. They do think they have already won, even when there is no sign that they have even begun to change the minds of the people that make the decisions (this is why they will not consider a real compromise). I feel it necessary to stay in the fight though.

Much of the time my questions are legitimate. Most of them have not been properly answered yet either. I also try to carry myself in a respectful manner even if it is blunt and forceful at times.

[tree68]

They do think they have already won,...

Indeed. It's my understanding that once the review of whether to re-open the UMP was announced, a map of "your new trail" made its appearance. I also heard a rumor that the asking price of a certain family's properties doubled at the same time.

Until the state actually decides to re-open the UMP (and they're in no hurry to do so, regardless of the as-yet unannounced result of the review), nothing is going to change regarding the railroad.

In the end, we're still faced with a bunch of vocal, rich, retired guys who want everyone out of "their" woods.

[Matt Langworthy]

They do think they have already won,...

I also heard a rumor that the asking price of a certain family's properties doubled at the same time.

Interesting... but I hope Tony realizes that just one property owner who claims his/her property after the rails are pulled could spoil any plans for a trail.

[RussNelson]

The Corridor Management Plan (often referred to as a generic UMP) did not, as Russ Nelson states, "reject" the full recreational option.

I read it. The UMP does indeed reject Option 1 (complete dissolution of the right-of-way), which is what Al prefers to Options 4 or 5. I have no doubt that Al is not the only person who feels that way. If Tony gets his way, and then Al gets his way, we will have neither a railroad nor a trail. Way to go, ARTA! Piss in my beer why don't you?

[BandA]

Would it be feasible to get through-train service running in the next 10 years? Is the middle portion "exempt" or oos? Are the rails reusable for passenger service?

Seems like the best defense is a good offense. Get a long term contract for the corridor and rebuild the rails. A bike (and/or hiking and/or snowmobile) trail should be an add-on.

Any possibility of "bridge" freight traffic in the distant future?

That's my .02 from far away.

[Otto Vondrak]

Any possibility of "bridge" freight traffic in the distant future?

"Bridge" traffic would mean connecting one railroad with another, so, no.

-otto-

[traingeek8223]

Would it be feasible to get through-train service running in the next 10 years? Is the middle portion "exempt" or oos? Are the rails reusable for passenger service?

Yes it's feasible. It's ties and ballast, and money. The rails themselves are in great condition with a lot of defect sections replaced in 1980 and all the bridges were repaired in 2001. The middle section (between Big Moose and Saranac Lake) is not technically OOS or exempt. It is simply not up to minimum passenger standards so only equipment moves take place in that section. This is something ARTA ignores choosing instead to call it "abandoned".

Get a long term contract for the corridor and rebuild the rails.

This is one of the things that has been needed for many years. Currently the railroad operates on a year to year lease but has a thirty-day revocable permit. This means that if DOT sees something they don't like or wishes the railroad operation gone, they can tell the railroad to leave with only thirty days notice. It is not from a lack of desire or interest in a long term contract on the part of the Adirondack Scenic that has prevented a longer lease but rather NYS. This most likely stems from the troubles with the Adirondack Railway Corporation of 1979-80. The state awarded them a 30 year lease, only to have the railroad shut down in two and then go bankrupt. The state then spent the next 10 years trying to regain control of their own property, ultimately having to buy-out the remainder of the lease at auction. A longer lease is probably the #1 thing that needs to change moving forward, even before any stone or lumber is put down.

Freight is a hotly debated subject. Rail supporters say it can happen, trail supporters say no. Remember this is a branch line so "bridge" traffic is not a possibility, at least in a traditional sense. Looking at this objectively (no really I am) it is not that difficult to see freight redevelop on the line. Lumber and garbage can be hauled out (also stone on the extreme southern end). Propane and finished goods brought in. Tupper Lake is also a good location for a trans-load facility serving the entire northern Adirondack region and helping take long-haul truck off of the narrow roads. This is all of course speculation and would need to be developed by someone much smarter then me.

[tree68]

A good read in the "Adirondack Daily Enterprise" - http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5041

I haven't read Mr. Beamish's book, but note this line from Mr. Branson's letter:

Again, refer to Mr. Beamish's 1995 book, and pay special attention to the section which proposes pulling up the rails and prohibiting any motorized vehicles thereafter.

Any questions as to the true intentions of ARTA? They want everyone out of their woods...

[BR&P]

Is the middle portion "exempt" or oos?

"Exempt" would apply to a grade crossing - one at which school buses and hazmat trucks do not have to stop. The track would either be "excepted" which does not permit occupied passenger trains, or Class 1, 2, or higher which do allow passengers.

I have not been following this closely, but since Beaver River contains a strong opponent, can they turn that to their advantage? If I understand, the track is in service for trips to Big Moose. Beaver River is what, ballpark 8 miles more? Kick butt, get that 8 miles usable, and run a few special trips up there to patronize the heck out of the lodge. Maybe an influx of money-spending train riders would get his attention. Or is the rail hatred even deeper than that?

[tree68]

Or is the rail hatred even deeper than that?

The desire of certain individuals to have a road to Beaver River is legendary in those parts. Hardly a year goes by that some proposal to build a road there doesn't crop up with the town. The original road was flooded when the reservoir was built (or the level raised, or both). The "trail" concept simply provides them with a means toward that end.

A "ferry service" over the Stillwater Reservoir (run by the same individual) was shut down because it was using state facilities for a for-profit business. This severely limited access for them.

Obviously the railroad bed would provide just such a road, if it weren't for the tracks. Some Beaver River residents are rules qualified and legally operate high-rail vehicles between Big Moose and Beaver River. Others can't be bothered to take the rules classes (or won't, probably because they'd have to mingle with the hated railroaders).

Ironically, the desire for a road is not universal amongst those having camps at Beaver River - in fact, many enjoy the fact that there is no road.

It's also been rumored that the individuals who want the road want to sell their properties at Beaver River. Obviously, a road would increase the sales value of said properties. Another rumor is that the asking price of those properties doubled when the decision to review whether or not to re-open the UMP was announced...

This may bring one to the conclusion that their talk about a trail is just that, talk. I would opine that if the tracks did come up and the road to Beaver River became a reality, that's the last you'd hear of a trail from that contingent. They'd sell, take the money, and run.

And another irony - the individual in question was actively involved in the operation of the Olympic-era Adirondack Railroad.

[traingeek8223]

I have not been following this closely, but since Beaver River contains a strong opponent, can they turn that to their advantage? If I understand, the track is in service for trips to Big Moose. Beaver River is what, ballpark 8 miles more? Kick butt, get that 8 miles usable, and run a few special trips up there to patronize the heck out of the lodge. Maybe an influx of money-spending train riders would get his attention.

That is indeed the next "phase" of expansion planned. It is almost exactly 8 miles from Big Moose to Beaver River. I have walked the tracks here (looong day) and they are in very good repair. Tie work would be all that is really necessary (found some date nails from 1912!!). Unfortunatly this wouldn't change much. Most of Beaver River residents support the railroad (some are even very active in the fight) and 90% of them voted against a road being built. The remaining 10% (four people) are deeply entrenched in ARTA with one of them generally considered to be "patient zero" in the movement to remove the rails. This is the same person who, as tree mentioned, was heavily involved with the Adirondack Railway of 1980. The true bitterness didn't start until he was caught running a hi-rail propane truck without permit.

Or is the rail hatred even deeper than that?

Understatement of the year so far.

[BR&P]

The other ironic thing is he's a hell of a guitar player and singer. Park at Thendara, take the train to Beaver River, dinner and music, take the train back. Or spend the night and take the train back the next day. The possibilities are endless and he's sitting on a potential gold mine. You would think he'd be screaming for those last few miles to be upgraded so the passengers could get to him.