Here's a couple pictures of the Mt. Division trail in Maine. It parallels the old Maine Central Mt. Division. Who says you can't have a trail along side a railroad. Tony G. any comments?
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Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2014
- Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Moderator: Otto Vondrak
notice how many people in pictures ?? riiight ...
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???
Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.
Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.
O.K., since I have been asked to come out of hiding I will respond to the question of why there can't be a parallel trail. There are sections of the rail corridor that look just like the provided photos, and yes there could be a parallel trail there. Unfortunately, most of the corridor traverses much wetter terrain where massive amounts of fill would be needed to essentially create a second railbed for the trail. In addition to providing and placing that much fill, every culvert providing drainage would have to be lengthened to accommodate this additional fill.
Last year, a group from the ASR was formed, with Jack Drury of Saranac as its head, to look at a parallel trail from Tupper Lake to the state campground at Rollins Pond. Also involved were Jim Ellis and Al Dunham of the ASR. I asked Al Dunham to be a part of this group so that, if the final decision by the state was to restore rail service, I could help maximize any trail component in the restored corridor. Although I was never invited to any meetings or field trips of this committee, I did learn that they made at least one field visit to the area north of Tupper Lake. If this group ever came to any conclusions, those conclusions were never communicated to either me or the public.
I thus maintain that there can't be a parallel trail.
Snowmobile business interests in White Lake have gone on line to advocate for removal of the tracks back to Remsen to increase their snowmobiling season; but ARTA continues its compromise position that tourist train service should continue from Utica to Thendara. That's where about 80% of the ASR's current business exists (including specials like the Polar Express that never even reach to Corridor) so it's not as though ARTA is intent on putting the ASR out of business.
Last year, a group from the ASR was formed, with Jack Drury of Saranac as its head, to look at a parallel trail from Tupper Lake to the state campground at Rollins Pond. Also involved were Jim Ellis and Al Dunham of the ASR. I asked Al Dunham to be a part of this group so that, if the final decision by the state was to restore rail service, I could help maximize any trail component in the restored corridor. Although I was never invited to any meetings or field trips of this committee, I did learn that they made at least one field visit to the area north of Tupper Lake. If this group ever came to any conclusions, those conclusions were never communicated to either me or the public.
I thus maintain that there can't be a parallel trail.
Snowmobile business interests in White Lake have gone on line to advocate for removal of the tracks back to Remsen to increase their snowmobiling season; but ARTA continues its compromise position that tourist train service should continue from Utica to Thendara. That's where about 80% of the ASR's current business exists (including specials like the Polar Express that never even reach to Corridor) so it's not as though ARTA is intent on putting the ASR out of business.
I don't know why people on here continue to poke the bear (been guilty of this myself so I will point my thumb back at me). Tony will never be convinced his idea is a loser. Focus on the people that really need to be set straight, like the snowmobile crowd and the not-so-well informed business owners that support the railroads destruction. This debate never even should have been started in the first place. All I hear anymore is "trail blah blah" and "the tracks must go because... (insert random BS)". The truth is there is room in many places for a parallel trail and alternate routes where there isn't. But ARTA won't acknowledge this because that is against their ultimate goal of removing the track and taking any money that NYS gives to the Adirondack Scenic for maintenance to put towards their cause. In a world where tourist railroads are growing in popularity and number, we in New York are pushing to remove a successful one (two). Makes me proud to be a New Yorker!
Matt Giardino
ALCO Historical & Technical Society
"To journey on the rails once more, really would be fine...
Just one more chance to ride again, on the Grand Adirondack Line."
ALCO Historical & Technical Society
"To journey on the rails once more, really would be fine...
Just one more chance to ride again, on the Grand Adirondack Line."
Just for what it's worth.
There's a paved foot trail from a shopping plaza in Mattydale (just north of Syracuse) back down along I-81 complete with an expensive overpass to cross the Thruway, down to 7th North Street.
In the middle of this busy area, I never see anyone using it, except last week one guy walking his dog. This even though it passes a school and a residential neighborhood and connects to places to shop or eat at both ends.
Part of the fence (perhaps 50 feet) separating it from I-81 fell down; it just needs some clips to attach the mesh to the posts. It's been that way for months.
Of course, in the winter it's covered in snow, it's not plowed or shoveled. And no snowmobiles nearby to go 75 MPH on it and crash into things and kill the drivers.
But, you know, if you build trails people will come and use them, or some nonsense like that. Even in this day and age of gas near $4.00 a gallon.
There's a paved foot trail from a shopping plaza in Mattydale (just north of Syracuse) back down along I-81 complete with an expensive overpass to cross the Thruway, down to 7th North Street.
In the middle of this busy area, I never see anyone using it, except last week one guy walking his dog. This even though it passes a school and a residential neighborhood and connects to places to shop or eat at both ends.
Part of the fence (perhaps 50 feet) separating it from I-81 fell down; it just needs some clips to attach the mesh to the posts. It's been that way for months.
Of course, in the winter it's covered in snow, it's not plowed or shoveled. And no snowmobiles nearby to go 75 MPH on it and crash into things and kill the drivers.
But, you know, if you build trails people will come and use them, or some nonsense like that. Even in this day and age of gas near $4.00 a gallon.
lvrr325 wrote:Just for what it's worth.
There's a paved foot trail from a shopping plaza in Mattydale (just north of Syracuse) back down along I-81 complete with an expensive overpass to cross the Thruway, down to 7th North Street.
In the middle of this busy area, I never see anyone using it, except last week one guy walking his dog. This even though it passes a school and a residential neighborhood and connects to places to shop or eat at both ends.
Part of the fence (perhaps 50 feet) separating it from I-81 fell down; it just needs some clips to attach the mesh to the posts. It's been that way for months.
Of course, in the winter it's covered in snow, it's not plowed or shoveled. And no snowmobiles nearby to go 75 MPH on it and crash into things and kill the drivers.
But, you know, if you build trails people will come and use them, or some nonsense like that. Even in this day and age of gas near $4.00 a gallon.
The price for gas is higher up in tug hill.. and in other snowmobile heaven area as well.. about $1-$1.50 more. I had a snobmoblie friend who was not pleasure with the gas stations charging gas for $5 in Tug Hill, at that time we were paying $3 per gallon
The last time I saw $3 a gallon gas was in South Carolina in September.
This will be my last comment on this. I've stewed about this long enough and figured it was time to comment.
My question is this Why now why in the last 4 years or so has there been this big effort to tear up the rails. There wasn't the movement to tear them up in 1973 when the Penn Central abandoned the line. There wasn't the movement to tear them up in 1982 after the Adirondack railway shutdown and there wasn't a big outcry to tear the rails up 10 years ago. Now all of a sudden in the last few years we have a group formed to remove the rails. The rail road has proved it can move passengers. It is intact from Utica to Lake Placid which it wasn't in 1992 when the current operation started. Now ARTA comes out and starts with the "Let's tear up the rails" chant. Why? I want to know what's the alterior motive here. There has to be one. We all know what Thompsons' motive is, he wants a road to Beaver River plain and simple. That's a no brainer, so we can see what his motivation is. As far as everyone else on the "Let's tear up the rails" bandwagon what's their motivation. It's more than it will provide for a longer snowmobile season. Let's be honest only Mother Nature can provide a longer snowmobile season. The snowmobilers should consider themselves lucky to be able to operate on an active rail line anyway because technically thats what it is active. It's just not used in the winter, but it still an active line and not abandoned as some like to call it. You wouldn't think about tearing up the CP line to Plattsburgh or the CSX line to Massena for a snowmobile trail. Both of these are active lines just like the Remsen to Lake Placid line.
I realize that I'm not going to change anyone's mind here, but I'd really like to know what's the bottom line. Who stands to gain on this deal if the tracks are torn up. Someone or some other group other is going to or else therre wouldn't be such a movment to tear up the line. It's more than the creation of a bike trail or snowmobile trail.
Think about it, I know I have and it sure makes me wonder.
Just My Humble Opinion.
Mike
My question is this Why now why in the last 4 years or so has there been this big effort to tear up the rails. There wasn't the movement to tear them up in 1973 when the Penn Central abandoned the line. There wasn't the movement to tear them up in 1982 after the Adirondack railway shutdown and there wasn't a big outcry to tear the rails up 10 years ago. Now all of a sudden in the last few years we have a group formed to remove the rails. The rail road has proved it can move passengers. It is intact from Utica to Lake Placid which it wasn't in 1992 when the current operation started. Now ARTA comes out and starts with the "Let's tear up the rails" chant. Why? I want to know what's the alterior motive here. There has to be one. We all know what Thompsons' motive is, he wants a road to Beaver River plain and simple. That's a no brainer, so we can see what his motivation is. As far as everyone else on the "Let's tear up the rails" bandwagon what's their motivation. It's more than it will provide for a longer snowmobile season. Let's be honest only Mother Nature can provide a longer snowmobile season. The snowmobilers should consider themselves lucky to be able to operate on an active rail line anyway because technically thats what it is active. It's just not used in the winter, but it still an active line and not abandoned as some like to call it. You wouldn't think about tearing up the CP line to Plattsburgh or the CSX line to Massena for a snowmobile trail. Both of these are active lines just like the Remsen to Lake Placid line.
I realize that I'm not going to change anyone's mind here, but I'd really like to know what's the bottom line. Who stands to gain on this deal if the tracks are torn up. Someone or some other group other is going to or else therre wouldn't be such a movment to tear up the line. It's more than the creation of a bike trail or snowmobile trail.
Think about it, I know I have and it sure makes me wonder.
Just My Humble Opinion.
Mike
Last edited by ffmike9 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
No tracks means a lot less restriction on what they can carry in and out, too.
No tracks means atv's and dirt bikes big pot holes and a trail so rough you can't walk ro ride a bicycle.
I vote no tracks it should become forever wild like the rest of the park.
Al
I vote no tracks it should become forever wild like the rest of the park.
Al
alzubal wrote:No tracks means atv's and dirt bikes big pot holes and a trail so rough you can't walk ro ride a bicycle.And I'll bet you vote, too. The current UMP lists your choice as one of the possibilities, and then rejects it outright. Of course, Tony and friends are trying to get the UMP changed. Once you open THAT up, all sorts of possibilities arise, e.g. no tracks, forever wild, no snowmobiles, no trail.
I vote no tracks it should become forever wild like the rest of the park.
Al
Yes I vote.
I would never want to see the tracks gone. There is no way if the tracks are taken up and supposed to go forever wield if the path is there that you would keep atv's and dirt bikes off the old row. The trees would never grow back. You know as well as I do that if the path is there the off road vehicles will use it.
The tracks should not be taken up.
Al
I would never want to see the tracks gone. There is no way if the tracks are taken up and supposed to go forever wield if the path is there that you would keep atv's and dirt bikes off the old row. The trees would never grow back. You know as well as I do that if the path is there the off road vehicles will use it.
The tracks should not be taken up.
Al
Since my name is still being mentioned in posts, I guess I can still respond. ARTA is not the first group to want to remove the rails and the recreational option was not permanently rejected.
In 1974, the Penn Central Railroad began the process of removing the rails subsequent to their abandonment proceedings. That action was halted and NYS bought the corridor to preserve it in case it was useful in Lake Placid's 1980 Olympic bid. While the railroad did carry some passengers to Lake Placid for the Olympics, the numbers were small compared to the overall number of spectators.
After the Adirondack Railway Corporation went bankrupt in 1981, the DOT again proposed removing the rails. This proposal was met with significant public opposition and several groups passed resolutions opposing the removal of the rails. One group was the Adirondack Mountain Club. As a then board member, I cast the only vote against the ADK's resolution.
The Corridor Management Plan (often referred to as a generic UMP) did not, as Russ Nelson states, "reject" the full recreational option. The initial draft simply said that rail interests would have five years to develop a plan to revive the railroad with private funding. I attended the meeting in Utica where this plan was first presented and I said I supported giving the railroad a chance since the then-operative statement from ARPS was that they would restore the tracks to Class III standards with no public funding.
Subsequent to that presentation, ARPS apparently realized they could never follow through on their original promise. Thus, after much apparent pressure from rail interests, the final CMP said: "Rail development will largely depend on privately secured funding sources because, although there are potential public sources, government funding cannot be guaranteed." Many millions of dollars later, all improvements to the corridor and most ongoing maintenance have come from government funds.
Option 4 in the CMP was for "full recreational use without the tracks". Option 5, however, proposed "segmented operations", and that is ARTA's position. From Thendara south, the ASR can continue top operate their excursions from Utica, their locals and canoe trains from Thendara, the Polar Express, the Beer and Wine trains, The Buffalo Head train, and the Easter Bunny Express. Given that snowmobile interests south of Thendara have advocated for additional track removal, I firmly believe that ARTA has offered a true compromise position that preserves ASR's most successful operations while opening the rest of the Corridor to better uses.
In 1974, the Penn Central Railroad began the process of removing the rails subsequent to their abandonment proceedings. That action was halted and NYS bought the corridor to preserve it in case it was useful in Lake Placid's 1980 Olympic bid. While the railroad did carry some passengers to Lake Placid for the Olympics, the numbers were small compared to the overall number of spectators.
After the Adirondack Railway Corporation went bankrupt in 1981, the DOT again proposed removing the rails. This proposal was met with significant public opposition and several groups passed resolutions opposing the removal of the rails. One group was the Adirondack Mountain Club. As a then board member, I cast the only vote against the ADK's resolution.
The Corridor Management Plan (often referred to as a generic UMP) did not, as Russ Nelson states, "reject" the full recreational option. The initial draft simply said that rail interests would have five years to develop a plan to revive the railroad with private funding. I attended the meeting in Utica where this plan was first presented and I said I supported giving the railroad a chance since the then-operative statement from ARPS was that they would restore the tracks to Class III standards with no public funding.
Subsequent to that presentation, ARPS apparently realized they could never follow through on their original promise. Thus, after much apparent pressure from rail interests, the final CMP said: "Rail development will largely depend on privately secured funding sources because, although there are potential public sources, government funding cannot be guaranteed." Many millions of dollars later, all improvements to the corridor and most ongoing maintenance have come from government funds.
Option 4 in the CMP was for "full recreational use without the tracks". Option 5, however, proposed "segmented operations", and that is ARTA's position. From Thendara south, the ASR can continue top operate their excursions from Utica, their locals and canoe trains from Thendara, the Polar Express, the Beer and Wine trains, The Buffalo Head train, and the Easter Bunny Express. Given that snowmobile interests south of Thendara have advocated for additional track removal, I firmly believe that ARTA has offered a true compromise position that preserves ASR's most successful operations while opening the rest of the Corridor to better uses.
Curiously, the Adirondack Railroad (Olympic edition) carried nearly 12,000 passengers during the summer of 1980. The operation was shut down because of mismanagement, not because people weren't riding. According to folks I know who worked on that operation, most trains had in excess of 100 riders.
One wonders if the Adirondack Scenic would exist if the Adirondack Railroad had been properly managed - it might still be carrying passengers the full length of the line.
Considering that it will probably cost just as much to turn the corridor into a little-used (except for the four-wheelers and mountain bikes) trail as it would to rehabilitate the line so that people of all ages and abilities could enjoy the full length of the corridor, it makes more sense to run trains.
Besides, when the environmental groups get done with it, it will be a "segmented" trail, as significant portions will likely be closed of to motorized vehicles, and they'll make sure that's the case.
One wonders if the Adirondack Scenic would exist if the Adirondack Railroad had been properly managed - it might still be carrying passengers the full length of the line.
Considering that it will probably cost just as much to turn the corridor into a little-used (except for the four-wheelers and mountain bikes) trail as it would to rehabilitate the line so that people of all ages and abilities could enjoy the full length of the corridor, it makes more sense to run trains.
Besides, when the environmental groups get done with it, it will be a "segmented" trail, as significant portions will likely be closed of to motorized vehicles, and they'll make sure that's the case.
Tree
Everyone Goes Home - Safety Begins With Me
Opinions are my own. No Expiration Date
Everyone Goes Home - Safety Begins With Me
Opinions are my own. No Expiration Date
So maybe they did carry 12,000 passengers during the summer of 1980. They still didn't earn enough to keep the operations going. Passenger service has almost never been profitable for railroads, and this route is no exception. The DOT estimate for restoration of the line is $43 million, but I can assure you the trail will cost way, way less. Probably closer to zero once the salvage value of the steel is included.
I can assure you that the ARTA board includes several dedicated snowmobilers; and whatever prior positions some ARTA board members may have had, ARTA is totally committed to creating a trail on the Corridor. Please stop trying to ascribe to ARTA motives that we just don't have.
As a previous pro-rail post stated, this post will not likely "change any minds". But I'd just like to see if any response can actually answer any of the specific statements in my previous posts.
I can assure you that the ARTA board includes several dedicated snowmobilers; and whatever prior positions some ARTA board members may have had, ARTA is totally committed to creating a trail on the Corridor. Please stop trying to ascribe to ARTA motives that we just don't have.
As a previous pro-rail post stated, this post will not likely "change any minds". But I'd just like to see if any response can actually answer any of the specific statements in my previous posts.