• Trains on CSX St. Lawrence Sub (CR's Montreal Secondary)

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by tree68
Today's Q620 had a real mixed bag of freight. IM at the head end, you-name-it for the rest. It hit Evans Mills about 5:20 PM.
  by conrailman02
A short southbound train went by here today at 0545 AM this morning. Was unable to tell what it was due to it being dark as night out.
  by tree68
There's a Virtual Railfan camera at the crossing in Pulaski - it might have rewind. Many do.
  by nickstowell
Notice on sunday and today a north bound with the symbol B782. Train is the same make up as the Q620. Don,t know what to think of this.
  by tree68
There's no B782 listed on the wiki - might be a new symbol, or so rarely used that the wiki hasn't picked it up.
  by conrailman02
Q620 now ends in Syracuse and B782 is the new train ID from Syracuse to Quebec. Yesterday it went up by here around 1730 with 4 CSX locos and a ton of mixed freight; no containers though. A southbound train went by last night around 2300.
  by joha107
It looks like this is the last week that the Valleyfield terminal will be used for intermodal, CN's Montreal terminal is also starting to be used for intermodal shipments while everything is transitioned to strictly using CN in Montreal. CSX is advertising 7 day a week service on their intermodal schedules for Montreal, I believe they were only using Valleyfield 5 days a week.
  by tree68
Can we presume that Q621 probably also has Dewitt as an end point and that there is a new southbound counterpart to B782?
  by joha107
No replacement for Q621 as of yet, Q621 is still running between Massena and Selkirk, but would have to imagine that it will be changed as well at some point.
  by joha107
CN has officially filed with the STB to purchase the St. Lawrence and Montreal Subdivisions from CSX, this includes all branchlines between Woodard and Beauharnois, including the Fulton Sub, CN will use their BL&E subsidiary for the transaction. Doesn't look like any major changes to operations after CN takes over, one pair of road trains as there is now, unless intermodal traffic dictates otherwise, likely local assignments will remain in place at Woodard, Watertown and Massena, probably one in Beauharnois as well. CN will get trackage rights into DeWitt to interchange trains operating to the east and Belle Isle for trains operating to the west, the agreement also doesn't allow CN to gain access to the NYS&W or FGLK. Proposed timeline for completion of this transaction is slated for May 2020.
  by tree68
Apparently the through trains will be M327 and M326.

The article on the Trains Magazine newswire didn't mention the locals.
  by johnpbarlow
Here's the 157 page B&LE filing to acquire the Massena Lines:
https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7 ... 248603.pdf

Maps of the track acquisition:
CN Massena Line Map.JPG
CN Syracuse Map.JPG
Post-transaction train ops:
CN Massena Lines Train Ops.JPG
Other interesting items:

"...the Transaction will clearly have no anticompetitive effects and therefore qualifies as a minor transaction under Section 1180.2(b) of the Board’s regulations. B&LE will substitute for CSX to provide service to local customers on the U.S. Massena Lines and also to move overhead traffic over the U.S. Massena Lines to interchange with CSX. This Transaction will move the interchange between the CN System and CSX from Huntingdon, Quebec to Woodard, New York, and thus increase the CN System length of haul. The Transaction will not reduce competitive rail alternatives for customers located on the U.S. Massena Lines and will not significantly affect the handling of overhead traffic over the U.S. Massena Lines..."

Interesting factoid: "... as part of the Transaction, the CN System is re-purchasing the line from Huntingdon, Quebec to Massena, NY that CNR previously owned and that it sold in 1989 to Consolidated Rail Corporation (“Conrail”)..."

CN's defensive motivation to acquire Massena Lines: "...The CN System is seeking to acquire the Massena Lines to preserve its direct connection and gateway with CSX and extend the CN System’s length of haul. In effect, the Transaction will result in moving the CN System-CSX interchange from Huntingdon, Quebec to Woodard, NY. More than 45% of the current carload traffic on the Massena Lines is overhead traffic exchanged between the CN System and CSX, for which the Massena Lines provide a direct connection and gateway. If the acquirer of the Massena Lines were a rail carrier outside of the CN System, then an additional railroad would operate as a bridge carrier between the CN System and CSX, adding another interchange and requiring coordination with and participation of a third carrier. This would reduce operating efficiency, increase costs, and increase transit times to the detriment of existing interline customers of the CN System and of CSX that move overhead traffic over the U.S. Massena Lines. If the CN System were to use an alternative gateway for current overhead traffic now moving over the U.S. Massena Lines, it would likely involve a longer, less efficient route, with higher transit times and costs over the next-closest gateway between the CN System and CSX for that movement. This would not be beneficial for rail customers..."

Excerpt re: physical traffic interchange locations: "... Interline manifest freight, intermodal traffic, and military trains moving between Fort Drum and points east of Syracuse will be physically interchanged between B&LE and CSX at CSX’s Dewitt Yard. Unit trains originating or terminating on the Fulton Subdivision and military trains moving between Fort Drum and points west of Syracuse will be physically interchanged at CSX’s Belle Isle Yard..."

WRT to CSX's existing PTC ops on the line, CN will continue such ops but will work with FRA to see if the small # of PIH cars handled permits PTC to be de-activated (I think)

Excerpt re: post-transaction train ops: "...Following consummation of the Transaction, the CN System will operate one pair of through trains (M327 southbound and M326 northbound) per day between Taschereau Yard (in Montreal) and Woodard, NY, with physical interchange occurring in Dewitt Yard (near Syracuse). These trains will replace the CSX Q621 and Q620 trains between Massena and Dewitt Yard, as well as the CSX B798 and B799 transfer assignments now operating between Massena, NY and Huntingdon, Quebec and the B762 transfer assignment now operating between Massena and Ste. Agnes. This will make train operations more efficient overall, as elimination of the B798 and B799 transfer assignments will eliminate the waiting time currently required on CSX to coordinate scheduling of the crews for B798 and B799, thereby reducing total estimated transit time by approximately 24 hours. CN System trains M327 and M326 are expected to initially carry mixed manifest and intermodal traffic. They will set out and pick up cars at Massena, Watertown, and Woodard. Crews on M327 and M326 will be changed at Massena Yard. B&LE’s U.S. crews will operate in the United States. CNR’s Canadian crews will operate in Canada except to cross the border to change crews at Massena Yard, as was the practice between 1989 and 2004, when CNR ceased operating trains south to Massena Yard for physical interchange..."

Excerpt re: track maintenance: "...B&LE plans to maintain the St. Lawrence Subdivision mainline to its present Class 3 FRA track classification..."

Excerpt re: CN post-transaction interchange with RRs other than CSX: "...CN anticipates that B&LE’s principal points of interchange with other carriers on the Massena Lines in the United States will be as follows after Closing: CN-MHWA at Carthage, NY; CN-NYOG at Norwood, NY; and CN-MSTR at Massena, NY. The U.S. Massena Lines do not connect to the New York, Susquehanna and Western Railway or to the Finger Lakes Railway Corporation, and under the PSA, B&LE will not acquire access to and agrees not to seek access to those carriers or their successors or assigns..."
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