TRENTON-CAMDEN LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM.. THE RIVER LINE

[Irish Chieftain]

Is it expandable? Like the HB-LRT?

The line could be extended to West Trenton, and if you eliminate bike trails and restore abandoned segments, you could send trains to places like Lambertville, Frenchtown, even Phillipsburg.

[JDFX]

I was thinking more like Princeton College, rebuild the Trenton-Princeton Traction company, would make a great extension.

Feasable?

[EDM5970]

The West Trenton extension of the River Line would be a lot easier to pull off than reviving the Princeton-Trenton Traction Company ROW. If they build the proposed extension to the State House, they will be not too far (a few blocks) from the old Reading branch into Trenton from West Trenton.

The line to Princeton has a lot of issues. Buildings on the old ROW, and a bridge would have to be built over I-95 out near the Rider University athletic fields. Also, Princeton (and Princeton University) already has pretty decent rail service in the form of the PJ&B, which can (after a transfer to the NEC) take you to the same corner (but across the street) in Trenton.

[transit383]

If there were an extension of the RL into Princeton, that would permit NJT to eliminate the Dinky as a heavy rail operation and perhaps loop the light rail into Princeton Junction. As far as the West Trenton idea, wouldn't that create a large amount of passengers wishing to board NEC trains at Trenton? I can picture people riding the SEPTA line into West Trenton and then transferring over the River Line and then onto the NEC. Even if NJT's West Trenton Line is up and running, the NEC will likely be the quicker route, and having the light rail option would, IMO, generate large patronage on the already crowded NEC trains.

[Irish Chieftain]

The "Dinky" is not heavy-rail (subway) but FRA commuter rail. Joining the "River Line" to it would make it unreliable, not to mention taking it out of NJTRO operation will result in a conflict between the fare structures of the light rail and commuter rail systems—new agreements would have to be set up to allow use of monthly passes and any inter-ticketing to/from PJ when transferring on/off the NEC. (Also, the high platforms it cost NJT $X-million or so to build at Princeton Junction would have to be torn down since the LRVs can't use them.)

And would it be preferable to dieselize the Dinky anyway? As things currently stand, the Dinky is connected to the NEC, and if the track and catenary east of the station were upgraded, then direct service to/from NYP could still be available, by extending Jersey Avenue locals.

[transit383]

Also, the high platforms it cost NJT $X-million or so to build at Princeton Junction would have to be torn down since the LRVs can't use them.

Not necessarily. The LRV tracks could be elevated the three feet or so to bring them up to platform level so the LRVs could use them.

And would it be preferable to dieselize the Dinky anyway? As things currently stand, the Dinky is connected to the NEC, and if the track and catenary east of the station were upgraded, then direct service to/from NYP could still be available, by extending Jersey Avenue locals.

It was stated in the previous forum, before the site went down, that NJT will never run through service from Princeton. I believe there are certain weight restrictions on the Dinky anway, so running a full train of Arrows over the line would likely be prohibited. All locomotives, except for the SW1500s are already prohibited from the line. And if Jersey Avenue Locals were to be extended, then why not run them out of Morrisville Yard? There is no room in Princeton to hold more than one train.

As far as the dieselization of the Dinky goes, it just seems that most of the time the train is 'bustituted' anway, so why not link this line into the rest of the River Line system?

[Irish Chieftain]

Not necessarily. The LRV tracks could be elevated the three feet or so to bring them up to platform level so the LRVs could use them

That would be a lot more expensive than tearing down high platforms to build low ones. Not to mention creating grades that the LRVs may not be able to surmount.

As far as the dieselization of the Dinky goes, it just seems that most of the time the train is 'bustituted' anway

How often does this happen? "Seems" is a nebulous kind of description.

Besides, in order to get the Dinky service transferred to light rail, that is going to require concessions on the part of the unions, who may not be willing to give up operations of the Dinky to Southern New Jersey Light Rail Group LLC for whatever reasons. (The existence of DBOM companies like SNJLRG-LLC and 21st Century Rail are already the source of much contention between NJTRO labor and NJT management.) Not to mention that waiting for LRVs to come out of Trenton in order to connect to trains at Princeton Junction present their own set of problems...

[Jtgshu]

The dinky is bustituted every night, I think its between 9 and 10pm....this is a break time for the RR crew.

I would much rather see, if anything were to change on the Dinky (I hope not - if it works, don't touch it) I would much rather see a bus do the job anyway. If worse came to worse, make the ROW a busway. It serves no purpose to completely change, rebuild the operation, grades, platforms (at Princeton Jct also remember is high) for a light rail operation. It would be a complete waste of money in my opinion.

there are weight restricitons on the branch, pretty much limiting the line to only MU's, but I didn't notice any restriction on how many MU's could operate on it at once....I guess theoretically, a 12 car set could be run down the branch, as a direct train to NYC, but all the people who board at PJ (sometimes there are hundreds) would have to go downstairs and board the train on the opposite 2 car platform, and only useing the end doors, because of the large gap between teh platform and center doors. Not to mention, Nassau interlocking would have to be rebuilt - the wires are still there for the switches, but the tracks and signals would need to be redone. (Why nassau was ever taken out, I just don't understand) or else, the reversed hand thrown switches would need to be changed, the track upgraded, and then the eastbound run 6 miles up to Midway on track 4, and the signals on 4 would have to be upgraded to 261, as it currently is 251 in the west direction.

I think its much easier to keep the status quo on the Branch. Even if NJT were to decide get rid of the MU's and not rebuild them, they would be smart to keep maybe like 6 units, maybe 2 pair and 2 singles and have them rebuilt to operate on the branch.

[JDFX]

(The existence of DBOM companies like SNJLRG-LLC and 21st Century Rail are already the source of much contention between NJTRO labor and NJT management.)

This alone is a whole separate issue which can have its own thread. Sorry folks, but NJT needs to stop worrying what other companies are doing, and start worrying about running their railroad instead. Its called minding their own business.

As for the grades issue, if the LRVs were electric, like on the H-BLRT, I would say no problems as evidenced with the steep graded overpass which takes the vehicles over CRSA in Jersey City. (south of Danforth Ave)

But I am not familiar with the diesel powered ones, so I cannot comment.

I will admit, at first, I was very skeptical about these LRVs and POP systems.

But now, after being on the H-BLRT, and seeing how well it is run, what it has done for Jersey City, and the fact that it is expanding into areas were ridership will no doubt just increase, I think its safe to say that the age of the trolley has returned, and couldn't have come at a better time.

I'd like to see a couple of these vehicles painted in the old trolley service schemes as a throwback, and a nod to a time when this concept was brand new.

[JLo]

First, why mess with a good thing? The Dinky operation works and works well. Second, you can forget getting anything done in Princeton. The University controls much of the land around town and is not going to stand for any change that would impair their ability to develop such land as they see fit EXCEPT if NJT decided to eliminate the Dinky--they would be all for that.

[themallard]

I was thinking more like Princeton College, rebuild the Trenton-Princeton Traction company, would make a great extension.

Feasable?

If they were to rebuild the Princeton-Trenton Traction Company, it would better serve Rider University in Lawrenceville because the bed runs through the campus in-between the athletic fields, and the housing for the students.

[danb]

Please don't shout.