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Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

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 #1315320  by bmwr12
 
jrzwalker86 wrote:I can say with 100% certainty that there was a crane truck sitting on the rails off of Whitesville Rd, ,Jackson, with fresh creosote timber next to it. They looked a little too big to be ties but I am not sure exactly what they are for.

Conrail is repairing the 3 bridges that they asked the state rail fund to grant money for.
 #1315648  by jrzwalker86
 
Hi Meghan,
Yes I realize Conrail ends around Union Avenue in Lakehurst which is indeed several miles south of Whitesville Road. Perhaps I should have posted this on the Southern Secondary forum. :) I do know about the grants given to the different parties as explained on other pages. By no means did I mean to imply that this was going to the NJSL project. :) I do not even know if the fairly close timing between the Conrail grants and the NJSL grants is in any way related to each other. I imagine Conrail applied for grants with the expectation of serving someone in the future or maybe to sell their portion of the line? Could the latter be possible? I can only state what I see and I hope you realize I have been very consistent with doing so ;).
 #1315867  by luminous53
 
Hey all. on the southern forum it was rumored that Clayton may try and use old Glidden pit (which they now own and it's enormous) for sand/rail shipments. wouldn't it make more sense and be less expensive to rebuild and maintaine that spur then the 13+ miles to Woodmanise. Also I wonder if they decided against the 13 mile rehab and are looking into alternatives to get rail shipment again. The spur has only 1 crossing and no bridges. seems like long term that work be much cheaper AND conrail can serve them directly. At "5-10 cars daily" that is a lot oftraffic and would be the largest shipper served by Browns right? I know the steal mill gets a lot in Parlin but I don't think it's that many.

Also I think people get confused about the grant work because the NJSL grant does include bridge work on the wooden bridge SOUTH of Union ave in Lakehurst in their grant. when people hear bridge work they assume it's NJSL. Conrail has multiple reasons to want their three bridges between cross st and union ave repaired. if there is activity south of union Ave or on the glidden site then yes, that would be good news and a reason to believe sand might start running.

Does anyone know where Clayton block manufactures their products. Ever read the Clayton catalog. lots of products they sell. The Sand trains could terminate at that location?
 #1315872  by CTL10D
 
Considering the Glidden Spur was just completely ripped out a few years ago, I doubt they`re going to go back and re-lay it now, but who knows. Not positive about this, but I thought I remember reading that the switch for the Glidden spur off the Southern was straight-railed too.
 #1315889  by luminous53
 
hey Megan. The Glidden spur was I think 1.4 miles heading west. It came off the southern at about Fremont ave in Manchester, crossed RT 547, ran the boarder of the Pine Barron golf course then ended at the pit. The tracks are gone and the switch removed but you can clearly see where it ran from Google earth. they removed the tracks in the late 90s. The conveyor train was the last train to use it I believe. CNJ hauled out huge amounts of sand from the Glidden pit back in the day. The pit was owned by Glidden paint for awhile because they mined (Titanium Dioxide, a white pigment) from the site. When they extracted all the pigment they sold the site to Clayton.

Also I think bridge work has more to do with the base in Lakehurst and I hope they come down to use the turnaround again. maybe dirt trains are to resume at the base???

I guess what I was thinking it might be easier to build the spur out again then deal with the 13 mile headache from Lakehurst to Clayton. I guess in reality it might be cheaper to buy land closer to the main and build a small spur but I think Clayton owns the land up to to RT547 which is a very short walk to the main which got me thinking when I heard the rumor.

Yeah I have a hard time seeing the state giving any money if they say, Ohh we have a new idea now.
 #1315918  by luminous53
 
The grant proposal says there is a customer that wants sand via rail and they are seeking other potential customers. It's not frac sand, it's construction sand. If and when a tunnel project starts Clayton would have a very good ability to get the contract and ship a LOT of sand via rail and almost all of the cost of rehab paid for by the state. GOOD DEAL! Maybe with no project they will never pull the trigger on resuming service. But that doesn't mean this other customer (presumably cement type plant) doesn't want shipments by rail and Clayton is trying to make it happen in good faith. It just comes down to money and what has been rumored by a inside source, "he is in no rush". This other customer wants a lot of sand but not to the extent of making this happen fast, or maybe ever.
 #1315926  by jrzwalker86
 
Here is information posted on Railfan.net concerning the Glidden Spur. I hope I am not going off topic. Perhaps the thread should be renamed Clayton Activities of the Southern Secondary?...LOL!!!
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?bo ... 1142800522" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note my link on the second page links back to Railroad.net discussing the tear up of the spur in 2007.
 #1315930  by luminous53
 
thanks for posting this. In the 90's those tracks were always shinny and looked much better then the Southern. I cut and pasted some info below
I sent a message to a ex CNJ employee Bob Hoeft asking what he knew about this spur and here was his reply.

"The Glidden Spur, just short of M.P. 63, was a facing point hand operated switch westward to the right or north of the main. It went back a mile or so to the Glidden Company ilmenite mining operation. Ilmenite is a jet black sand which is a good source of titanium, used in the manufacture of white paint. The ilmenite was shipped in 70 ton L&NE covered hoppers (we owned
them) to the Glidden paint factory in Baltimore routed CNJ BBrk RDG ParkJct B&O Dely.
Under full production, we would bring about 7 loads out each day. The cars were stencilled for this service and would come back empty to South Lakewood.
Glidden got in trouble for polluting the streams so they closed. The operation left huge craters where the drag lines had sucked up the sand. It also left huge mountains of nice clean sand after the ilmenite was extracted. They sold the sand 'hills' commercially, mostly by rail, and filled up the craters with garbage, much of which was contaminated and created a new problem by polluting the lpcal water supply. If you recall reading of the 'Legler' superfund site, that is it."

The Glidden spur was constructed in 1960 or so when Glidden figured out a way to extract the Ileminite ore from the sand . Since steam went away on the CNJ in 1954 this was strictly a diesel operation.
 #1317320  by bmwr12
 
Splatz wrote:Encouraged to see active speculation afoot on the CAS&O rehab activity north of our 13 miles. The only logic that applies is one, the Conrail grant is now being acted on and two the NJSL Grant is yet to be. No improvements are happening south but north, the direction of commerce in the sense that south of the 13 miles is a NJDOT owned ROW to a South Jersey, as was said, and timeless and valuable access if not for rail but the expanding natural gas empire in the expanding south Jersey.

The next best customer for my money will be perhaps long after Clayton's first customer pulls the trigger. Why? Well looks like the younger set as opposed to my cohort sees the merit of not having 80 per cent of us hitting the macadam trails instead of the rails. A rehabbed rail line just puts us on the track for that, to use an expression, and not a rail trail that no one uses.

http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/15/0 ... -398603313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


NJSL posted on there Facebook page this week that the rehab was going to start soon and I quote

"New Jersey Seashore Lines- The highway traffic signals on Lacey Rd at Manchester Blvd. are tied in and will go red on approach of a train. There is a big project expected in the spring/summer to complete the rehab of the tracks. Once that is done the final determination of resumption of train service will be made. We're looking forward to it as much as you are!"
 #1317589  by bmwr12
 
Meghan wrote:
bmwr12 wrote:NJSL posted on there Facebook page this week that the rehab was going to start soon and I quote

"New Jersey Seashore Lines- The highway traffic signals on Lacey Rd at Manchester Blvd. are tied in and will go red on approach of a train. There is a big project expected in the spring/summer to complete the rehab of the tracks. Once that is done the final determination of resumption of train service will be made.(Emphasis added) We're looking forward to it as much as you are!"
Huh? Run that by me again please...
I hope this is just a another case of what seems to be poor wording. I read that statement as meaning that the the track will be rehabilitated then the customer, if there is one, will decide if they want rail service. That's backwards. To get the grant you need to show that there will be a minimum 1:1 financial benefit from the State's investment. In this case that means at least $1.5 million in tangible benefits. If there is no customer commitment to use the rail service then it is at best very difficult to demonstrate that benefit. If the customer's decision is not going to be made until after the rehabilitation is complete then the clear implication is that there is no hard commitment. If there is no hard commitment than the State needs to reexamine the grant application before the funds are disbursed.

Maybe whoever handles the NJSL FaceBook page needs to rephrase that? Please?
Ken W2KB wrote:Presumably the decision to resume train service will turn on the existence of a bona fide customer.
Counselor, you know as well as I do that if there is no bona fide customer then there is a significant problem with the application which was made to get the grant in the first place. (NJAC 16:53C-5.2(a)4)

Meghan :(

http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/a ... am_003.pdf

The answer from NJSL was a combined answer from multiple posts. What I assume they ment was that when the work is done they will need to make sure the repairs they had done were enough to allow trains to run over a line that has not been used since 1990.
 #1317592  by RailsEast
 
Thank you, counselor, you are most informative; a few very interesting points taken from the rule:

"(b) Financial assistance shall be on a reimbursement basis to an owner of rail property, operator of rail freight service, or responsible public agency or authority."

So, pay for your grant application work, then the state will send you a check to reimburse you.....

"(a) Financial assistance for a project is limited in duration to a period not to exceed three years from the date of execution of the project agreement. Should circumstances dictate that a
project's duration extend beyond three years, the sponsor shall request such an extension from the Department in writing, including a detailed justification for the request."

Nearly one year has passed, so presumably time is of the essence for the line south of MP66.

"9. A certification signed by the applicant, or the owner of the property if other than the applicant, agreeing that the State may record a lien against the property in the amount of
the full value of the improvements made to the property as a guarantee that the applicant, or owner of the property if other than the applicant, will cause or use its best efforts to
cause common rail freight service to be provided using the rail freight facilities or right-of-way that is the subject of assistance for a period of no less than five years from the date
the State provides written notification of acceptance of the funded project is complete."

Does this mean that NJSL must provide (or attempt to provide using best efforts) rail service for 5 years upon completion of work? The word 'lien' is not so nice of a word, any way you slice it......

With all the stipulations involved, I would think that it is not worth it at all to proceed with any work unless the applicant is certain that it can fulfill the agreement. I presume that if nothing is started, then no harm, no foul, aside from the 10% applicant cost (in this case, $150K); but......if no work is done, does the applicant still owe the 10%?
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