CR on the Southern Secondary

[Coast Line Railfan]

Woooo boy, I've been missing my email notifications.

As for the C&D, as I've said before it is a *rumor* (which is most of what gets talked about here) that they were interested in purchasing the FIT and SOUS.

Woodmansie to Winslow will never come back, I honestly can't name a good reason for it to do so, and it will cost hundreds of millions to restore, all for essentially no purpose.

"Conrail no longer wants to deal with Sayreville" is funnier than saying pigs fly. The SA-22 always makes a good profit, and the SA-31 does some days as well. Most recently, the Amboy Secondary has regained three new customers in the past three months; Tulnoy, Onestop, and PSS. Someone must be doing something right for that to happen.

Brick Recycling did cease service in March or May of 2019, but have seriously considered regaining service. A few employees have chatted with friends of mine, and have said they were considering it.

From what I have heard, the plastics factory closed and changed hands. It is now some business that deals with boats for something, thus they didn't need any rail service. As for north of Sayreville, yes they are TONS of freight movements up there, and more on the NEC. If the NEC had even more stringent restrictions than NJT, you wouldn't see half as much freight move through there, which makes you think the NJT "regulations" aren't really as strict as they've been portrayed.

All of the "management" accusations, I think, are still pretty far fetched, as no one has really provided any detailed descriptions, other than those from "locals."

In terms of who is more active, I'd still say North Jersey is by far more. Consider the 4 liquid terminals that get units trains almost every day, the various ExpressRail terminals, Kearny, Elizabethport, and Staten Island trash, and that's an easy 10-15 jobs right there. Then factor in all the hump, yard, dockside, and customer locals and I'd say you have a fair lead over SJ.

[Coast Line Railfan]

Over the Rusty Rail at 16:20. 5286, 4432, +11

[RailsEast]

Operation Lifesaver unit leading for the third week in a row, approaching Maxwell Rd at 4:45 in the pm with 11 lumber.

[pdtrains]

I could be wrong, but AFAIK, CSAO is a terminal railroad. They switch cars in certain specific areas, so that the owning RR's (NS & CSX) can have equal access to all the customers in the area. CSAO's business is moving cars on behalf of the parent RR's, period. The dont have a sales staff, cause CSX or NS are the railroads the consignees deal with. CSAO might have a billing staff, to handle money collection for the parent RR's (so a consignee doesnt have to deal with 2 different RR's for billing. If they do have a "sales staff", it is a staff on behalf of either CSX or NS.

Problem is, as we all know, NS and CSX dont have any interest in carload freight anymore. Their only real interest is intermodal traffic and the traffic to the chemical plants, and a few other large shippers.
Getting a shortline operator that makes its money from carload freight, would be a big help to any of the CSAO "branch lines", that now see minimal service.

Not sure why the branches out ot browns yard (sayreville, Dayton, Hightstown, Freehold, and Southern, were not converyed to either CSX or NS. Other branchlines in northern NJ were. (Irvington and the northern to CSX, and the branches off the EL out of croxton to NS. )

But then again, its NJ. Things, however they turn out, will be decided by politics and whose palms get greased.
"Everythings legal in New Jersey" --Hamilton

[Coast Line Railfan]

Conrail does have the ability to sign customers, most of the business is probably with CSX and NS.

[Bracdude181]

@pdtrains NS doesn't want carload traffic. In fact, it seems like they don't want any non intermodal traffic!

CSX however, wants all the traffic they can get from what I can tell. They make up most of the carload traffic going into Oak Island, whereas NS only has 18G bringing anything that isn't intermodal, oil, or autorack traffic nowadays.

[JohnFromJersey]

Woodmansie to Winslow will never come back, I honestly can't name a good reason for it to do so, and it will cost hundreds of millions to restore, all for essentially no purpose.

Lakewood to Woodmansie is what? 20 something miles probably? Woodmansie to Winslow Junction is somewhere between 30 and 40 miles, so it's not much short. Granted, the tracks between Lakewood and Woodmansie were still in tact, but I don't think the cost would be WAY higher than that.

I do think Woodmansie-Winslow would be useful. For one, it could be a BIG chance for the revitalization of Atlantic City, since it would be a more direct route from NYC. It could be used to reduce congestion/freight use of the NEC, especially for trains going to and from Port Newark, which could allow for Amtrak/NJT to do more maintenance and HSR on the NEC between NYC and Philly. Not to mention, maybe it could spur some more economic activity for South Jersey.

[CJPat]

I feel it is extremely unlikely to ever see Woodmansie-Winslow restored ever. This section has been discussed numerous times in the 589 pages here and in the discussion of service to Atlantic City that thoroughly discusses how non-useful that line is today. But here are the bullet points.
* Built in a different era by a competing railroad to serve the NYC metro area. Traffic died out and so did the Rail Company that ran it (Jersey Central). NYC's needs changed. Markets Changed and the competitors railroads don't exist anymore. Jersey Central was competing against the PRR back then.
* No potential traffic. Through it's entire life, between Winslow and Woodmansie, there were only 2-3 customers over the 30+ miles (Chadsworth had an agricultural siding and there might have been one or two others). The line existed purely as a connector from the Delaware Bay to the Northern NJ/NYC area to bring up seafood up to the northern food markets and return building materials down south. What meager business is left in South Jersey is adequately served via Camden & the Pennsauken bridge and the yards in the Philly area. They don't need the NY Metro area.
* Route is considered very slow in comparison with the NE Corridor since it would have to travel through numerous grade crossings which means reduced speed due to safety requirements. NE Corridor is an elevated line with Grade Separation.
* Runs through the extremely environmentally sensitive Pine Barrens. Pine Barren Commission and NJDEP had kanipshins over the natural gas line they wanted to install over to the B.L. England Power Plant in Marmora on the Great Egg Harbor Bay. No one is going to renew a "dirty" railroad through that area again.

The only use I could see occur would be if NJSL wanted to clear the track down to Rt 72 for car storage. And NJSL is not going to want to refurb and maintain a bridge over Rt 72 just to park rail cars. And they would have to get a rental agreement from NJDOT to do it.

[RailsEast]

And, fwiw, it wasn't the "Glidden Paint" spur, it was the Glidden spur into Clayton's large Jackson, NJ, sand plant. Like Garry (GSC), I ran dump trailers into many different sand and gravel facilities (including Woodmansie) back in the mid-80s. The Glidden Spur last saw trains in the late 80s and was torn out by 1990.
And, yes, I kick myself frequently for not having a camera back then (pre-internet and pre-cell phone era)....

Chris

[CJPat]

Chris,
I know I never saw a train on the spur, but are you sure the tracks were torn out by 1990? I swear I was crossing the tracks over South Hope Chapel Rd past 2000. I thought the tracks were ripped out around the time they built that golf course (2006?). Man, time is moving too fast.

The tracks came off their "main" through Clayton's Jackson quarry and across S. Hope Chapel and ran aways through the woods to the second sand pit a little ways in/off of Cnty 571

[R&DB]

I thought the tracks were ripped out around the time they built that golf course (2006?).

You're right, sometime between 2002 & 2006.

[Coast Line Railfan]

A change of pace from all of our speculation with a photo of mine of a small spur about 1.1 miles south of Route 72. A friend of mine thought this was a zinc processing factory site for the longest time, but it turns out it was actually a nickel mine, that seemed to close sometime in 2002 or 2003. Not sure the name of it, who ran it, exactly what they did. Quite a mystery.

[CJPat]

That's a great pic!

Did that spur look like it crossed Savoy Blvd?

I thought I saw a track that crossed Savoy back in the '90s (very much unused since the rail line was deactivated in the '70's), but in later years, I could find no sign of where it crossed. I gather, at some point, Savoy must have been repaved and removed all traces of the crossing (it was relatively flush with the street surface).

I was starting to believe it was a false memory.

As far as an active mine in 2002 in that area? I don't think anything was active for 40 years out there. The only thing that was seemingly keeping Chatsworth floating (no pun intended) was Ocean Spray.

[Bracdude181]

I'd just like to throw my two cents in regarding recent posts about a potential re-activation of the Southern between Winslow and Woodmansie.

While it's almost certainly not going to be reactivated, I have heard some rumors that say otherwise.

One of the rumors was that Conrail was to have NJ Seashore Lines reactive the line between Lakehurst and Winslow, to move cars between Oak Island and Camden. An Oak Island to Camden transfer was run for a short time while the line was still active (to my knowledge) so I guess something like that could work if there's money to be made on that kind of train.

The other rumor, which is honestly kinda crazy, was that CSX and Conrail were looking into rebuilding Lakehurst to Winslow (as well as the rest of the Southern) so that it could be used as a permanent reroute for CSX oil trains.

Apparently, residents along the CSX Philadelphia and Trenton Subdivisions are worried about one of the oil trains derailing and exploding. Something along the lines of the Montreal Maine and Atlantic crash in Lac Megantic.

Instead of going down the CSX mainline, the trains would be sent down the Beeselys Point Secondary to Winslow, where the trains would turn North and use the Southern. From Farmingdale onwards, there's a few potential routes. The Coast Line and the Northeast Corridor are two routes they considered.

I personally don't think this will happen, but it's certainly a possibility.

The only other area of the Southern that I know is being looked at for sure is Woodmansie to Chatsworth. NJ Seashore Lines has considered doing car storage on this stretch, so maybe that's what we are likely to see. It's certainly better than nothing.

[Coast Line Railfan]

That's a great pic!

Did that spur look like it crossed Savoy Blvd?

I thought I saw a track that crossed Savoy back in the '90s (very much unused since the rail line was deactivated in the '70's), but in later years, I could find no sign of where it crossed. I gather, at some point, Savoy must have been repaved and removed all traces of the crossing (it was relatively flush with the street surface).

I was starting to believe it was a false memory.

As far as an active mine in 2002 in that area? I don't think anything was active for 40 years out there. The only thing that was seemingly keeping Chatsworth floating (no pun intended) was Ocean Spray.

Little correction for myself, it actually was a zinc plant, opened on April 1, 1942.. It didn't cross Savoy Blvd, the tracks are east of the road and this went into a wide open area. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/39%C2 ... 74.5071806)

Now that you say it, yeah it probably wasn't active that long, but was demolished in 2003.