CR on the Southern Secondary

[Coast Line Railfan]

@CoastLineRailfan I do know that North Jersey management has tried to get rid of the Southern as they want nothing to do with it, but nobody has told me that it was confirmed. Honestly it kinda seems like a bad idea for a few reasons.

1. Red Bank Yard can only hold about 15 cars and there isn't much room to expand.

2. The current route from South Amboy to Red Bank has strict limitations on the gross weight and height of cars, as well as restrictions on the types of cars that can come down. Only Plate E cars can come down, and the gross weight limit I believe is 263,000 pounds. This is 23000 pounds less than the national standard of 286,000 pounds.

3. If C&D takes over, then NJSL would have to have their cars be transferred through 2 separate railroads before they can be shipped to wherever via NS or CSX. This may lead to transfer fees and longer shipping times. They could theoretically take over NJSL as well, but I don't think NJSL would give that line up after spending so much money fixing it.

4. Without the Farmingdale to Freehold route, there is no backup route to the Southern. So if something happens on the Coast Line (i.e. storm damage or infrastructure problems) there could be very large delays in getting cars down to Red Bank. This exact situation occurred after Hurricane Sandy, and there wasn't a single freight or passenger train for weeks afterwards as the Coast Line was completely destroyed in some spots.

One more thing. If C&D or another railroad was going to take over, they would have to file a notice of exemption with Conrail, and this hasn't occurred yet.

1. Southern Yard would not be used at all, Conrail has no trackage rights in it and don't plan to get any, neither would the C&D, if they obtained the route.

2. Considering the three customers on the line do not require 286,000 pound cars, there really is no need for heavier cars, and since the sand is very likely not to happen, this is even less of a problem.

3. The "NJSL" wouldn't care how many railroads the cars went through considering cars for Woodhaven already come from all parts of North America, should they even begin operation.

4. If the C&D deal will go through, they intend to purchase the Freehold Industrial Track as well, most likely planning to use that instead of the Coast Line. Thus, this would negate the need to use the Coast Line and all of the apparently cumbersome restrictions. Storm damage would affect every line, not necessarily just the Coast Line. Though it may be closer to water, that doesn't mean it and only it will be affected.

[RailsEast]

Wow, popcorn time. If no one presents STB Filing ID Numbers or Docket Numbers, or NAMES of people supposedly leaking information, then nothing is happening.
Crikeys, sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but throwing around hearsay evidence is just a waste of bandwidth.

And, yes, I was privy to some pretty 'deep info' rumblings from a bona fide suitor about the Southern before the pandemic, but everything is not only on hold, but now may not ever see the light of day.

Fwiw, both Southern Yard and Pearl St Yard are property of New Jersey Transit. Conrail Shared Assets has no yard in Red Bank.

Hoping the world gets better (especially in an election year),
Chris

[NY&LB]

"Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now."

20 years ago? Try more like 45 years ago. I moved into the area over 30 years ago and at that time, they were only running two small trains a week down the Secondary, SA-31 & SA-35.

Last run of JS-1 / SJ-2 was April 5th 1976. The trains ran daily up until the end.

The last train from Lakehurst to Winslow JCT was August 3rd, 1978.

[JohnFromJersey]

This is the first time I've heard about C&D, and I've been on this thread since 2016. If there was ever any mention of a takeover, it was always NJSL or CSX/NS supposedly taking over. I've never even heard of C&D? What's the deal on that?

[pdtrains]

If the C&D were buying in to operate the "southern Sec" , I'd thing they would be after the whole central jersey cluster...Browns yard, sayreville, freehold and dayton tracks. as well as the southern. CSAO would just run a turn from OI to browns and back.

The C&D made many immediate improvements to the old DLW washington Line, when they started operating it instead of NS. Roadbed undecut to permit plate F cars, Sidings were rehabbed and new switches put in. Highway signal circuits rebuilt for 20 mph running (the track circuits were still at lengths for 40 mph running from 60 years ago. Highway flashers would be going for 2 minutes before a train showed up! ) And they set up a sensible operating schedule that would save a day of transit time on many inbound loads.
IDK if they've been able to generate any new business, but they cant be worse than NS, which certainly could care less.
Anyway, I think if C&D took over the "browns cluster", youd see the track from freehold to farmingdale back in service in short order, at least for 10mph. AFAIK, the rail is still there, and they wouldnt have to take everything out and start from scratch with new sub roadbed and everything, like a govt featherbedding contract.

And trains with an engine on both ends, which makes operations a lot easier.

Im just sayin...

[JohnFromJersey]

If the C&D were buying in to operate the "southern Sec" , I'd thing they would be after the whole central jersey cluster...Browns yard, sayreville, freehold and dayton tracks. as well as the southern. CSAO would just run a turn from OI to browns and back.

The C&D made many immediate improvements to the old DLW washington Line, when they started operating it instead of NS. Roadbed undecut to permit plate F cars, Sidings were rehabbed and new switches put in. Highway signal circuits rebuilt for 20 mph running (the track circuits were still at lengths for 40 mph running from 60 years ago. Highway flashers would be going for 2 minutes before a train showed up! ) And they set up a sensible operating schedule that would save a day of transit time on many inbound loads.
IDK if they've been able to generate any new business, but they cant be worse than NS, which certainly could care less.
Anyway, I think if C&D took over the "browns cluster", youd see the track from freehold to farmingdale back in service in short order, at least for 10mph. AFAIK, the rail is still there, and they wouldnt have to take everything out and start from scratch with new sub roadbed and everything, like a govt featherbedding contract.

And trains with an engine on both ends, which makes operations a lot easier.

Im just sayin...

Does anyone have proof that they would want/are planning to do this? Maybe if it ever goes through, we could see Woodmansie-Winslow come back, and it could be used as an alternative route from the NEC or something. I could definitely see the TRIT coming back, as someone mentioned here that they could put a rail to truck (and vice versa) transloading facility on the property. But I really wish they would upgrade the tracks and have higher speeds, my girlfriend and I took a vacation to Hershey a month ago, and we had our campsite next to an NS line; those things were going really fast!

[CJPat]

The tracks from the Union Ave Crossing in Lakehurst south to the Clayton facility in Woodmansie are owned by Clayton. South of the Clayton facility was owned by NJDOT (they sold the northern 13 miles to Clayton) and I assume it is owned by NJ Transit now? I sincerely doubt we will ever see those tracks returned into service.

The "Southern" originally was put in place to transport agriculture and seafood from the Delaware Bay area north to NYC. There are a few industries left in southern NJ. South is handled via the bridge in Pennsauken. Sadly, the reason for the "Southern" to exist between Woodmansie and Winslow is way long gone now.

[CR2721]

If the C&D were buying in to operate the "southern Sec" , I'd thing they would be after the whole central jersey cluster...Browns yard, sayreville, freehold and dayton tracks. as well as the southern. CSAO would just run a turn from OI to browns and back.

The C&D made many immediate improvements to the old DLW washington Line, when they started operating it instead of NS. Roadbed undecut to permit plate F cars, Sidings were rehabbed and new switches put in. Highway signal circuits rebuilt for 20 mph running (the track circuits were still at lengths for 40 mph running from 60 years ago. Highway flashers would be going for 2 minutes before a train showed up! ) And they set up a sensible operating schedule that would save a day of transit time on many inbound loads.
IDK if they've been able to generate any new business, but they cant be worse than NS, which certainly could care less.
Anyway, I think if C&D took over the "browns cluster", youd see the track from freehold to farmingdale back in service in short order, at least for 10mph. AFAIK, the rail is still there, and they wouldnt have to take everything out and start from scratch with new sub roadbed and everything, like a govt featherbedding contract.

And trains with an engine on both ends, which makes operations a lot easier.

Im just sayin...

Does anyone have proof that they would want/are planning to do this? Maybe if it ever goes through, we could see Woodmansie-Winslow come back, and it could be used as an alternative route from the NEC or something. I could definitely see the TRIT coming back, as someone mentioned here that they could put a rail to truck (and vice versa) transloading facility on the property. But I really wish they would upgrade the tracks and have higher speeds, my girlfriend and I took a vacation to Hershey a month ago, and we had our campsite next to an NS line; those things were going really fast!

I'm with John on this. I have never heard of Chesapeake & Delaware before, nor their supposed interest in this line. We need names and proof, otherwise we're just sending everyone on here into an orgy of hope and there's no happy ending...

[Bracdude181]

At this time, a takeover by Chesapeake and Delaware (or any other railroad) has not been confirmed. I haven't been able to find anything on the STBs website pertaining to the Southern Secondary or Central NJ freight trackage. All I found was Conrail requesting permission to abandon an industrial track in Pennsylvania that has no customers on it. I agree that until something is filed with the STB, we won't see any other railroad take over.

I believe this takeover rumor comes from recent efforts by North Jersey management to sell off some of their trackage south of Sayerville. (mainly the Southern and the Freehold Industrial) North Jersey no longer wants anything to do with Sayerville and the lines that connect to it, as they feel they are losing too much money on these lines. There are people within the organization who want to turn Central Jersey into something very profitable, but are unable to because of upper managements cost cutting and business practices.

Their most recent attempt was to sell the Southern to NJ Seashore Lines for a price between 8 and 30 million dollars, which NJSL said was too much. Other railroads were interested as well, but they all backed out for various reasons. (track conditions, freight limitations on NJ Transit, cost of improvements, areas to expand, etc

As for the decline of rail freight in Sayerville and points south, I personally haven't witnessed it personally. However, a very good friend of mine has witnessed it firsthand.

My friend has been watching the trains come down through Monmouth and Ocean counties for 30 years. (practically his whole life) Prior to the Conrail asset split off, the Southern saw two trains a week and a weekend switching crew that ran as needed. The trains were sometimes very long (40 cars or more) and there was a lot more customers than there is now.

Around early 2003, a sharp decline began. The SA35 was abolished and rechristened SA31, customers were dropped left and right, trains became shorter and less frequent, and service was eventually cut back to South Lakewood. He asked a crew who he knew personally about why this was happening, and they told him the following.

1. Traffic was dying because upper management felt that certain customers were not worth serving, even if they got a sizable shipment every trip.
2. NJ Transit had begun making large restrictions on freight cars. Certain types of cars and cargo were banned altogether.

The situation is further hampered by the fact that Conrail isn't allowed to look for business. Potential customers have to contact them and then go through NS or CSX to get rail service by Conrail on their behalf.

Of course, this isn't why ALL of the former customers are no longer are. Some have gone out of business and others have moved away. Gold Lumber stopped getting cars after their lot burned down.

It is however, the reason why customers like Brick Recycling and EH Allen can't get rail shipments. In the case of Brick Recycling, Transit said their cars could no longer come down citing fears that the weight of the cars would damage bridges on the Coast Line. Brick Recycling attempted to get service again, but Conrail was not interested in serving them.

This now means that Brick Recycling must ship by truck, which is significantly more expensive. The whole reason they moved in to that spot was because it had a rail siding. Now they can't use it, and are understandably very upset.

In EH Allens case, he has a siding and was getting cars frequently. At the time his siding was getting very old, so he asked Conrail to fix it. Conrail declined. Several other attempts to restore service were unsuccessful.

So now instead of having his cars shipped directly to his business in Sayerville, they are shipped down to builders general in Freehold. They are loaded onto a truck and brought back to Sayerville.

With all this in mind, is it any wonder why there's so many rumors about other railroads supposedly taking over Central NJ? Conrail has driven away so much business down here that it's no wonder they want to sell it all off to highest bidder.

[JohnFromJersey]

At this time, a takeover by Chesapeake and Delaware (or any other railroad) has not been confirmed. I haven't been able to find anything on the STBs website pertaining to the Southern Secondary or Central NJ freight trackage. All I found was Conrail requesting permission to abandon an industrial track in Pennsylvania that has no customers on it. I agree that until something is filed with the STB, we won't see any other railroad take over.

I believe this takeover rumor comes from recent efforts by North Jersey management to sell off some of their trackage south of Sayerville. (mainly the Southern and the Freehold Industrial) North Jersey no longer wants anything to do with Sayerville and the lines that connect to it, as they feel they are losing too much money on these lines. There are people within the organization who want to turn Central Jersey into something very profitable, but are unable to because of upper managements cost cutting and business practices.

Their most recent attempt was to sell the Southern to NJ Seashore Lines for a price between 8 and 30 million dollars, which NJSL said was too much. Other railroads were interested as well, but they all backed out for various reasons. (track conditions, freight limitations on NJ Transit, cost of improvements, areas to expand, etc

As for the decline of rail freight in Sayerville and points south, I personally haven't witnessed it personally. However, a very good friend of mine has witnessed it firsthand.

My friend has been watching the trains come down through Monmouth and Ocean counties for 30 years. (practically his whole life) Prior to the Conrail asset split off, the Southern saw two trains a week and a weekend switching crew that ran as needed. The trains were sometimes very long (40 cars or more) and there was a lot more customers than there is now.

Around early 2003, a sharp decline began. The SA35 was abolished and rechristened SA31, customers were dropped left and right, trains became shorter and less frequent, and service was eventually cut back to South Lakewood. He asked a crew who he knew personally about why this was happening, and they told him the following.

1. Traffic was dying because upper management felt that certain customers were not worth serving, even if they got a sizable shipment every trip.
2. NJ Transit had begun making large restrictions on freight cars. Certain types of cars and cargo were banned altogether.

The situation is further hampered by the fact that Conrail isn't allowed to look for business. Potential customers have to contact them and then go through NS or CSX to get rail service by Conrail on their behalf.

Of course, this isn't why ALL of the former customers are no longer are. Some have gone out of business and others have moved away. Gold Lumber stopped getting cars after their lot burned down.

It is however, the reason why customers like Brick Recycling and EH Allen can't get rail shipments. In the case of Brick Recycling, Transit said their cars could no longer come down citing fears that the weight of the cars would damage bridges on the Coast Line. Brick Recycling attempted to get service again, but Conrail was not interested in serving them.

This now means that Brick Recycling must ship by truck, which is significantly more expensive. The whole reason they moved in to that spot was because it had a rail siding. Now they can't use it, and are understandably very upset.

In EH Allens case, he has a siding and was getting cars frequently. At the time his siding was getting very old, so he asked Conrail to fix it. Conrail declined. Several other attempts to restore service were unsuccessful.

So now instead of having his cars shipped directly to his business in Sayerville, they are shipped down to builders general in Freehold. They are loaded onto a truck and brought back to Sayerville.

With all this in mind, is it any wonder why there's so many rumors about other railroads supposedly taking over Central NJ? Conrail has driven away so much business down here that it's no wonder they want to sell it all off to highest bidder.

Wow. I really hope Conrail sells the line off then, that's pretty counterproductive and neglectful. I don't think there's much they could do to fix up the line, even in advent of a management change, since they can't even try to recruit customers.

What were the other customers on the line? I knew by Collingswood Auction, there was a plastics factory, and there were various concrete facilities on the ROW as well; I believe the Farmingdale Industrial Park on the way to Mulligan's used to have some sort of freight service within the last couple decades too. There was customers on the TRIT (mostly Builder's General, who I thought elected to end freight service) as well.

Given the NJSL's recent troubles with operations down in Cape May (I don't think they ever recovered from the stolen track a few years ago), I'm not surprised they didn't pay millions for the Southern; though I could see them relocating to Central NJ. What other railroads were interested? NS? CSX? And I can't imagine the track quality was different 30-40 years ago, the Southern has been in the 10-20 MPH range for a while now.

As for NJT restrictions, there's a ton of freight on the Coastline north of Sayerville, and even more on the northeast corridor. NJT shares a lot of single tracked lines, like the Atlantic City Line, with freight that uses said lines more than them. Why is the Coastline such a prized jewel for them?

They might as well give up the line for free at this point.

[ccutler]

It appears that railroads face a business management issue not unique to the railroad industry: no one in management wants to cover or care for the smaller customers when they can compete for the glory of covering the larger clients. So the Southern Secondary has only one lumber customer large enough to get attention, and all the other customers won't see the light of day.
Selling to short line operators is a proven business model. The short lines do care about all of those neglected small shippers who, in aggregate, are very important to them. I would not be surprised to see shipments rise 50% or more if a proven short line operator takes over. Doing so also benefits the Class Is so they should hustle to sell it.

[CJPat]

JohnFromJersey wrote

What were the other customers on the line? I knew by Collingswood Auction, there was a plastics factory, and there were various concrete facilities on the ROW as well; I believe the Farmingdale Industrial Park on the way to Mulligan's used to have some sort of freight service within the last couple decades too. There was customers on the TRIT (mostly Builder's General, who I thought elected to end freight service) as well.

Just to throw out a couple for memories sake:
I believe the customer in the Farmingdale Industrial Park you are referring to was Frequency Engineering who was a good customer on the Pennsylvania Railroad east of where it crossed the Jersey Central at the diamond. Frequency had a large DOD contract that kept them busy, but I am guessing here, that their rail service ended early '80's? I didn't think there was a connector from the Pennsylvania to the Jersey Central on the east side of the diamond (that was where the station used to be) so i am guessing after the Pennsylvania dropped service in the 1960's, Jersey Central must have serviced them via a complicated move pulling west towards Gold Lumber and backing into Frequency? Someone help me here on this. Everything was well dead by 1990.

The Secondary also served (I think it was..) Glidden Paint's sand quarry in Jackson off of a long spur. Lakewood had Dinaso & Son Lumber yard downtown. In Lakehurst, you can still see the loading system just south of the Union Ave crossing where Ocean County used to transload out a soil amendment product (legal term to avoid the use of "fertilizer") in Covered Hoppers that they generated off the sewage plants. I think they called it "Ocean Grow (?)" It was an excellent product but Ocean County got sued by another fertilizer company(s) who claimed unfair business practice because the government was not allowed to go into profitable business for itself. There was a short revitalization of the spur into Lakehurst NAS when there was a contract to excavate and ship out plutonium contaminated soils from way over at the old BOMARC missle site off Cnty 539.

These and a few others disappeared over the last 20 years. If you went back further, there were a number of other sidings in Lakewood and Lakehurst (including passenger and freight shipments into/out of Lakehurst NAS in the 1930s).

The TRIT only had Builders General and Suburban Propane from 1990 forward. I am thinking the railroad gave notice that they weren't going to deliver down there anymore. Builders General switched to receiving to up in Monmouth county (Freehold?) and trucking down to Toms River and Suburban Propane closed their store. Ciba Geigy stopped rail shipping in the '80's when they shut down manufacturing operations. Trains hadn't gone south of there since the 1970's.

[Bracdude181]

The thing is, the other parts of Conrail do care for their smaller customers.

South Jersey is a great example of this. Whoever is calling the shots down there (Someone who used to work for CSX or something) has trains that run efficiently and bring in millions in revenue for Conrail and its parent company's. They seem far more willing to serve small customers, and will build a rail siding for anyone near a rail line who wants service.

It may be possible that I was wrong about Conrail not being allowed to advertise, as South Jersey appears to do so. Many of my sources tell me there's a no advertising policy at Conrail, so I'd have to do some research into this.

In North Jersey, they'll tell you that you're not worth their time. Another example of that happened in Sayerville.

There's a guy directly in front of Browns Yard. He wanted to start getting one boxcar a week full of materials used for making/remodeling bathrooms and kitchens. Conrail wanted $500,000 to put a small siding in, which was far too expensive. He then asked if Conrail could leave the car on an existing track in the yard so he could unload it himself. Conrail said no to this as well.

Conrail has attempted to sell some of Central Jersey before. (Mainly the Southern and the Freehold Industrial) Some of the railroads that were initially interested include Chesapeake and Delaware, Winchester and Western, NJ Seashore Lines, Reading and Northern, and a few others that I don't know the names of. Conrail has been unsuccessful to sell off anything here for two reasons.

1. Restrictions on transit prevent the growth that potential buyers want.
2. The overall costs of improvements needed due to track conditions, the current lack of a useable alternative route the Southern, (Farmingdale to Freehold) and the inability store more than 15 cars in Red Bank Yard.

They want Conrail to make those changes first, which isn't going to happen under current management. I've mentioned before that the general manager for North Jersey is an old guy who used to be the track maintenance head at Penn Central. He has more seniority over almost anyone else in this part of the company, so what he says goes. He frequently cuts corners and has a belief that not serving small customers will save the company money. He's reluctant to do improvements, and when he does it's only for the all time biggest most money making customers. Smaller customers are practically left to fend for themselves.

There are people in the company who want to change North Jersey for the better, but nothing will change under current management.

As for freight on the Coast Line, much of it slowly disappeared once transit took over. The only other customer on the Coast Line that I'm aware of is a chemical plant on the border of Perth Amboy and Woodbridge. I believe PR-08 drills them as needed.

There's definitely quite a bit of freight on the Northeast Corridor. They even switch out an industrial park in Jersey Ave as needed. Kinda wish they'd start serving the warehouses and distribution centers personally.

There are potential customers all over the Coast Line and Transits Newark Division, but Transit doesn't want any freight whatsoever. I believe this may be because the Newark division has a different leader than the Hoboken Division, where freight is generally more abundant. As to why Transit doesn't like freight, I've heard many reasons why they don't.

Some of their excuses I've heard are:

1. The weight of freight trains.
2. Increased liability insurance costs by having freight trains run on Transit lines.
3. A belief within Transit management that freight trains are bad for the environment. (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)
4. Fears of freight trains breaking down and causing delays.
5. Safety concerns about freight trains sharing tracks with passenger trains.

As for Issues that Cape May Seashore Lines has run into, the Cape May Branch vandalism did indeed cause problems, some of which are still prevalent. I've visited their operation before, and was pleasantly surprised. They run one hell of a car storage business down there from what I hear. Their excursions are nice, but they don't run too often. The owner of Cape May Seashore runs NJ Seashore Lines in Lakehurst as a subsidiary. I've met him before and have talked to him about the operation he plans to run. He has thought about taking the Toms River track over once service to Clayton Sand starts up, and maybe do railcar storage between Clayton and the town of Chatsworth. Here's hoping we see that in the future.

[JohnFromJersey]

JohnFromJersey wrote

What were the other customers on the line? I knew by Collingswood Auction, there was a plastics factory, and there were various concrete facilities on the ROW as well; I believe the Farmingdale Industrial Park on the way to Mulligan's used to have some sort of freight service within the last couple decades too. There was customers on the TRIT (mostly Builder's General, who I thought elected to end freight service) as well.

Just to throw out a couple for memories sake:
I believe the customer in the Farmingdale Industrial Park you are referring to was Frequency Engineering who was a good customer on the Pennsylvania Railroad east of where it crossed the Jersey Central at the diamond. Frequency had a large DOD contract that kept them busy, but I am guessing here, that their rail service ended early '80's? I didn't think there was a connector from the Pennsylvania to the Jersey Central on the east side of the diamond (that was where the station used to be) so i am guessing after the Pennsylvania dropped service in the 1960's, Jersey Central must have serviced them via a complicated move pulling west towards Gold Lumber and backing into Frequency? Someone help me here on this. Everything was well dead by 1990.

The Secondary also served (I think it was..) Glidden Paint's sand quarry in Jackson off of a long spur. Lakewood had Dinaso & Son Lumber yard downtown. In Lakehurst, you can still see the loading system just south of the Union Ave crossing where Ocean County used to transload out a soil amendment product (legal term to avoid the use of "fertilizer") in Covered Hoppers that they generated off the sewage plants. I think they called it "Ocean Grow (?)" It was an excellent product but Ocean County got sued by another fertilizer company(s) who claimed unfair business practice because the government was not allowed to go into profitable business for itself. There was a short revitalization of the spur into Lakehurst NAS when there was a contract to excavate and ship out plutonium contaminated soils from way over at the old BOMARC missle site off Cnty 539.

These and a few others disappeared over the last 20 years. If you went back further, there were a number of other sidings in Lakewood and Lakehurst (including passenger and freight shipments into/out of Lakehurst NAS in the 1930s).

The TRIT only had Builders General and Suburban Propane from 1990 forward. I am thinking the railroad gave notice that they weren't going to deliver down there anymore. Builders General switched to receiving to up in Monmouth county (Freehold?) and trucking down to Toms River and Suburban Propane closed their store. Ciba Geigy stopped rail shipping in the '80's when they shut down manufacturing operations. Trains hadn't gone south of there since the 1970's.

I heard about Glidden Paint's sand quarry in Jackson. Saw one picture, that was the only picture/info I could find on it. When did they end service? And I imagine the track is long gone...

I do think if a shortline took over the Southern Secondary, the TRIT would come back, and Builders General down there would be very happy to have train service again.

I do think that maybe a short line could pull what NJSL has been doing, using some extra NJDOT funds to fix the Freehold Industrial Track; that would be cheaper and faster than, I'd imagine, fixing Lakewood-Clayton.

[JohnFromJersey]

The thing is, the other parts of Conrail do care for their smaller customers.

South Jersey is a great example of this. Whoever is calling the shots down there (Someone who used to work for CSX or something) has trains that run efficiently and bring in millions in revenue for Conrail and its parent company's. They seem far more willing to serve small customers, and will build a rail siding for anyone near a rail line who wants service.

It may be possible that I was wrong about Conrail not being allowed to advertise, as South Jersey appears to do so. Many of my sources tell me there's a no advertising policy at Conrail, so I'd have to do some research into this.

In North Jersey, they'll tell you that you're not worth their time. Another example of that happened in Sayerville.

There's a guy directly in front of Browns Yard. He wanted to start getting one boxcar a week full of materials used for making/remodeling bathrooms and kitchens. Conrail wanted $500,000 to put a small siding in, which was far too expensive. He then asked if Conrail could leave the car on an existing track in the yard so he could unload it himself. Conrail said no to this as well.

Conrail has attempted to sell some of Central Jersey before. (Mainly the Southern and the Freehold Industrial) Some of the railroads that were initially interested include Chesapeake and Delaware, Winchester and Western, NJ Seashore Lines, Reading and Northern, and a few others that I don't know the names of. Conrail has been unsuccessful to sell off anything here for two reasons.

1. Restrictions on transit prevent the growth that potential buyers want.
2. The overall costs of improvements needed due to track conditions, the current lack of a useable alternative route the Southern, (Farmingdale to Freehold) and the inability store more than 15 cars in Red Bank Yard.

They want Conrail to make those changes first, which isn't going to happen under current management. I've mentioned before that the general manager for North Jersey is an old guy who used to be the track maintenance head at Penn Central. He has more seniority over almost anyone else in this part of the company, so what he says goes. He frequently cuts corners and has a belief that not serving small customers will save the company money. He's reluctant to do improvements, and when he does it's only for the all time biggest most money making customers. Smaller customers are practically left to fend for themselves.

There are people in the company who want to change North Jersey for the better, but nothing will change under current management.

As for freight on the Coast Line, much of it slowly disappeared once transit took over. The only other customer on the Coast Line that I'm aware of is a chemical plant on the border of Perth Amboy and Woodbridge. I believe PR-08 drills them as needed.

There's definitely quite a bit of freight on the Northeast Corridor. They even switch out an industrial park in Jersey Ave as needed. Kinda wish they'd start serving the warehouses and distribution centers personally.

There are potential customers all over the Coast Line and Transits Newark Division, but Transit doesn't want any freight whatsoever. I believe this may be because the Newark division has a different leader than the Hoboken Division, where freight is generally more abundant. As to why Transit doesn't like freight, I've heard many reasons why they don't.

Some of their excuses I've heard are:

1. The weight of freight trains.
2. Increased liability insurance costs by having freight trains run on Transit lines.
3. A belief within Transit management that freight trains are bad for the environment. (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)
4. Fears of freight trains breaking down and causing delays.
5. Safety concerns about freight trains sharing tracks with passenger trains.

As for Issues that Cape May Seashore Lines has run into, the Cape May Branch vandalism did indeed cause problems, some of which are still prevalent. I've visited their operation before, and was pleasantly surprised. They run one hell of a car storage business down there from what I hear. Their excursions are nice, but they don't run too often. The owner of Cape May Seashore runs NJ Seashore Lines in Lakehurst as a subsidiary. I've met him before and have talked to him about the operation he plans to run. He has thought about taking the Toms River track over once service to Clayton Sand starts up, and maybe do railcar storage between Clayton and the town of Chatsworth. Here's hoping we see that in the future.

South Jersey is surprisingly active in terms of freight; I honestly think that if they could bring back the Woodmansie-Winslow Junction connection back, that there could be even more freight in South-Central Jersey; perhaps that could take some freight off of the NEC, which could allow for Amtrak to a) do more renovations without cutting into freight service and b) expand HSR operations with less freight/capacity.

As I said in my last comment, could a shortline try and pull what NJSL did? They got a pretty good grant to redo a dozen miles of track (I think), and the FIT-Southern Secondary rehab should be a quarter of that in length and cost; I think if they pull enough strings, an NJDOT grant could be achieved... If that did happen, I'd imagine there wouldn't be much excuse to keep using the Coast Line and its annoying restrictions!

And lol at the old guy running CSAO in North Jersey, of course a Penn Central track maintenance guy is running the whole thing. The tracks on the Southern Secondary are pretty atrocious. Is there anyway he'd retire soon? Have subordinates contact higher Conrail/government officials about the neglect? Anything?

That's a pretty ridiculous list of excuses from NJT. For one, their trains break down FAR more often than any freight train I've ever heard; the weight and safety concerns are BS since almost all the other Transit lines don't have issues with this; and if NJ prides itself on being a "progressive" state, why are they letting a couple of blowhards prevent freight from entering the line, where they could take more trucks off the road, lowering congestion and pollution? These sources in NJT/CSAO need to try and complain to SOMEONE higher than their immediate boss.

If only NJDOT could give a grant for Winslow-Woodmansie rehab, NJSL would have an even bigger operation going