• CR on the Southern Secondary

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

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  by JohnFromJersey
 
GSC wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:56 am It was back in the mid-70s when you could hear three sand trains going down, and a few hours later, three returning. I was staying in Farmingdale and heard them. Maybe 20-30 minutes apart, each with distinct quilling on the horns. It was also about the time that JS-1 through freight would head down to South Jersey, while a sand train would head north later in the day. SJ-2 would return late at night. Lashups with RS3s and SD35s weren't uncommon. Old beat up LHR and LNE covered hoppers hauled the sand. It was fun watching back then.
How long would these trains be?
  by NY&LB
 
JS 1 and SJ 2 would sometimes be 100 + cars
The sand trains were typically 40-60 cars
It was NOT a 10 mph railroad then!
Last edited by NY&LB on Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by Bracdude181
 
@JohnFromJersey One of my sources told me that Clayton Sand is capable of providing 61 loaded cars a day. I can't say for sure how the new operation would compare to how things were back in the 70s and 80s, but I can say what I've been hearing through my sources.

Supposedly, once the tracks to Lakehurst are re-activated and NJ Seashore Lines begins operations, Conrail will revive the SA-42 symbol. This train would act solely as a Lakehurst to Sayerville transfer for NJ Seashore Lines. It's anyone's guess at this time as to how often this train would run.

Seashore Lines will run between Lakehurst and Woodmansie with their own engines which will be leased GP38-2s. One of which might be brought up from Tuckahoe. (NJ Seashore is a subsidiary of Cape May Seashore Lines)

On the topic of NJSL, Work in the Union Ave crossing is progressing. They will have a brand new crossing installed before the end of the year...
  by CR7876
 
Bracdude181 wrote:@JohnFromJersey One of my sources told me that Clayton Sand is capable of providing 61 loaded cars a day. I can't say for sure how the new operation would compare to how things were back in the 70s and 80s, but I can say what I've been hearing through my sources.

Supposedly, once the tracks to Lakehurst are re-activated and NJ Seashore Lines begins operations, Conrail will revive the SA-42 symbol. This train would act solely as a Lakehurst to Sayerville transfer for NJ Seashore Lines. It's anyone's guess at this time as to how often this train would run.

Seashore Lines will run between Lakehurst and Woodmansie with their own engines which will be leased GP38-2s. One of which might be brought up from Tuckahoe. (NJ Seashore is a subsidiary of Cape May Seashore Lines)

On the topic of NJSL, Work in the Union Ave crossing is progressing. They will have a brand new crossing installed before the end of the year...
Interesting. I've heard that rumor since 2009.
  by Bracdude181
 
@CR7876 I only heard that recently. If you've been hearing it for that long from a different source than mine, then this is probably how things will play out once they start running. They were also talking about possibly using six axle power for this train if it's big/heavy enough. I'd like to see some ex CNJ power on that train personally.
  by CJPat
 
The catch is Clayton needs a customer who wants large quantities of sand at one time (projects like the meadowlands or a tunnel). Smaller volumes have been handled by the trucks adequately which is why the track project has been relatively languishing since 2006? (have we really been talking about the revival that long?)

Unless the sand heads out of state, it is not economical to move fewer numbers of railcars this close to home vs a unit style train direct to a large customer.
  by Coast Line Railfan
 
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:29 am Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now. Do you think we'll ever see that many trains on the Southern Secondary again? I wonder how many trains would be operated a week if the Clayton sand trains actually start running.
Realistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. The whole sand train frenzy has not yet come to fruition, at least the way see it. The extras for Woodhaven seem to be the best we can get until the Chesapeake & Delaware takeover, which is slated to occur sometime in the next 12 months, give or take. The sand rumors have been tumbling for the better part of years, and the only thing that has come of that is a few crossing replaced, which could very well be mandated by the NJDOT due to their poor condition. In addition, if Conrail really saw potential to make a few bucks, they would have gotten moving on the lime between Lakewood and Lakehurst. A lot of this project has been done with use-it-or-lose-it grants, which clearly haven't been able to do the job for this project sufficiently. As I said, I wouldn't hope for much more until next year at least. What CJPat said is very true as well, unless there is a large customer or project (like the Hudson tubes) who needs sand that can justify the use of the line, there really is no incentive or reason to operate the line just to lose money.
  by CJPat
 
"Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now."

20 years ago? Try more like 45 years ago. I moved into the area over 30 years ago and at that time, they were only running two small trains a week down the Secondary, SA-31 & SA-35.

It was all overgrown when I got here, but if I recall, the Secondary south of Lakehurst was in such bad shape, trains would creep out of there. They had several derails from splitting the gage. The last derail in '86 was the final nail in the coffin and clayton stopped shipping. I think he owned the tracks since around '78 after the Jersey Central had given up the ghost (was that '76?). Rerailing and repairing the rails several times gets too expensive.

Jersey sand is interesting and depending on where you dig, gives you a different product. Some sand, like Clayton's was great for construction, some sand was used to extract pigments to make white paint (taken from the spur just up the tracks in Jackson that used to cross Hope chapel Rd - was that Glidden?). And I don't remember who was supplying the sand for the 2 glass plants in Perth Amboy and down at Anchor Glass in Salem(?) at the bottom of the Southern.

Heck, Heritage Minerals off of Rt 70 (that the Secondary passes thru just north of Woodmansie/Whiting) has an off limit zone due to nuclear contamination as a result of extracting pigments from the sand.
  by CR7876
 
Coast Line Railfan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:21 pm
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:29 am Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now. Do you think we'll ever see that many trains on the Southern Secondary again? I wonder how many trains would be operated a week if the Clayton sand trains actually start running.
Realistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. The whole sand train frenzy has not yet come to fruition, at least the way see it. The extras for Woodhaven seem to be the best we can get until the Chesapeake & Delaware takeover, which is slated to occur sometime in the next 12 months, give or take. The sand rumors have been tumbling for the better part of years, and the only thing that has come of that is a few crossing replaced, which could very well be mandated by the NJDOT due to their poor condition. In addition, if Conrail really saw potential to make a few bucks, they would have gotten moving on the lime between Lakewood and Lakehurst. A lot of this project has been done with use-it-or-lose-it grants, which clearly haven't been able to do the job for this project sufficiently. As I said, I wouldn't hope for much more until next year at least. What CJPat said is very true as well, unless there is a large customer or project (like the Hudson tubes) who needs sand that can justify the use of the line, there really is no incentive or reason to operate the line just to lose money.
You are the first one to use C & D by name. I'm not saying you are right ( or wrong), but this would be some news.
  by CR7876
 
CJPat wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:47 pm "Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now."

20 years ago? Try more like 45 years ago. I moved into the area over 30 years ago and at that time, they were only running two small trains a week down the Secondary, SA-31 & SA-35.

It was all overgrown when I got here, but if I recall, the Secondary south of Lakehurst was in such bad shape, trains would creep out of there. They had several derails from splitting the gage. The last derail in '86 was the final nail in the coffin and clayton stopped shipping. I think he owned the tracks since around '78 after the Jersey Central had given up the ghost (was that '76?). Rerailing and repairing the rails several times gets too expensive.

Jersey sand is interesting and depending on where you dig, gives you a different product. Some sand, like Clayton's was great for construction, some sand was used to extract pigments to make white paint (taken from the spur just up the tracks in Jackson that used to cross Hope chapel Rd - was that Glidden?). And I don't remember who was supplying the sand for the 2 glass plants in Perth Amboy and down at Anchor Glass in Salem(?) at the bottom of the Southern.

Heck, Heritage Minerals off of Rt 70 (that the Secondary passes thru just north of Woodmansie/Whiting) has an off limit zone due to nuclear contamination as a result of extracting pigments from the sand.

I remember seeing the conveyor train going thru Lakewood. Must have been 1987 or 1988, I would have been 6 or 7. I remember seeing the Sa35 tied down for the nite (day) at Builders General on RT 37.
  by Coast Line Railfan
 
CR7876 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:51 pm
Coast Line Railfan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:21 pm
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:29 am Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now. Do you think we'll ever see that many trains on the Southern Secondary again? I wonder how many trains would be operated a week if the Clayton sand trains actually start running.
Realistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. The whole sand train frenzy has not yet come to fruition, at least the way see it. The extras for Woodhaven seem to be the best we can get until the Chesapeake & Delaware takeover, which is slated to occur sometime in the next 12 months, give or take. The sand rumors have been tumbling for the better part of years, and the only thing that has come of that is a few crossing replaced, which could very well be mandated by the NJDOT due to their poor condition. In addition, if Conrail really saw potential to make a few bucks, they would have gotten moving on the lime between Lakewood and Lakehurst. A lot of this project has been done with use-it-or-lose-it grants, which clearly haven't been able to do the job for this project sufficiently. As I said, I wouldn't hope for much more until next year at least. What CJPat said is very true as well, unless there is a large customer or project (like the Hudson tubes) who needs sand that can justify the use of the line, there really is no incentive or reason to operate the line just to lose money.
You are the first one to use C & D by name. I'm not saying you are right ( or wrong), but this would be some news.
It's been confirmed by a lot of people I know, as well as from a few guys at Conrail themselves. Besides that, there have been other repots of C&D starting the prosses with STB over the route, so there's a better chance of this going through.
  by Bracdude181
 
@CoastLineRailfan I do know that North Jersey management has tried to get rid of the Southern as they want nothing to do with it, but nobody has told me that it was confirmed. Honestly it kinda seems like a bad idea for a few reasons.

1. Red Bank Yard can only hold about 15 cars and there isn't much room to expand.

2. The current route from South Amboy to Red Bank has strict limitations on the gross weight and height of cars, as well as restrictions on the types of cars that can come down. Only Plate E cars can come down, and the gross weight limit I believe is 263,000 pounds. This is 23000 pounds less than the national standard of 286,000 pounds.

3. If C&D takes over, then NJSL would have to have their cars be transferred through 2 separate railroads before they can be shipped to wherever via NS or CSX. This may lead to transfer fees and longer shipping times. They could theoretically take over NJSL as well, but I don't think NJSL would give that line up after spending so much money fixing it.

4. Without the Farmingdale to Freehold route, there is no backup route to the Southern. So if something happens on the Coast Line (i.e. storm damage or infrastructure problems) there could be very large delays in getting cars down to Red Bank. This exact situation occurred after Hurricane Sandy, and there wasn't a single freight or passenger train for weeks afterwards as the Coast Line was completely destroyed in some spots.

One more thing. If C&D or another railroad was going to take over, they would have to file a notice of exemption with Conrail, and this hasn't occurred yet.
  by CR7876
 
Coast Line Railfan wrote:
CR7876 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:51 pm
Coast Line Railfan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:21 pm
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:29 am Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now. Do you think we'll ever see that many trains on the Southern Secondary again? I wonder how many trains would be operated a week if the Clayton sand trains actually start running.
Realistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. The whole sand train frenzy has not yet come to fruition, at least the way see it. The extras for Woodhaven seem to be the best we can get until the Chesapeake & Delaware takeover, which is slated to occur sometime in the next 12 months, give or take. The sand rumors have been tumbling for the better part of years, and the only thing that has come of that is a few crossing replaced, which could very well be mandated by the NJDOT due to their poor condition. In addition, if Conrail really saw potential to make a few bucks, they would have gotten moving on the lime between Lakewood and Lakehurst. A lot of this project has been done with use-it-or-lose-it grants, which clearly haven't been able to do the job for this project sufficiently. As I said, I wouldn't hope for much more until next year at least. What CJPat said is very true as well, unless there is a large customer or project (like the Hudson tubes) who needs sand that can justify the use of the line, there really is no incentive or reason to operate the line just to lose money.
You are the first one to use C & D by name. I'm not saying you are right ( or wrong), but this would be some news.
It's been confirmed by a lot of people I know, as well as from a few guys at Conrail themselves. Besides that, there have been other repots of C&D starting the prosses with STB over the route, so there's a better chance of this going through.
Interesting I missed that on the STB website. Can you post the link to the filings.
  by Coast Line Railfan
 
CR7876 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:56 pm
Coast Line Railfan wrote:
CR7876 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:51 pm
Coast Line Railfan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:21 pm
JohnFromJersey wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:29 am Crazy to think that 20 years ago, the line had a lot more activity than now. Do you think we'll ever see that many trains on the Southern Secondary again? I wonder how many trains would be operated a week if the Clayton sand trains actually start running.
Realistically, I wouldn't hold my breath. The whole sand train frenzy has not yet come to fruition, at least the way see it. The extras for Woodhaven seem to be the best we can get until the Chesapeake & Delaware takeover, which is slated to occur sometime in the next 12 months, give or take. The sand rumors have been tumbling for the better part of years, and the only thing that has come of that is a few crossing replaced, which could very well be mandated by the NJDOT due to their poor condition. In addition, if Conrail really saw potential to make a few bucks, they would have gotten moving on the lime between Lakewood and Lakehurst. A lot of this project has been done with use-it-or-lose-it grants, which clearly haven't been able to do the job for this project sufficiently. As I said, I wouldn't hope for much more until next year at least. What CJPat said is very true as well, unless there is a large customer or project (like the Hudson tubes) who needs sand that can justify the use of the line, there really is no incentive or reason to operate the line just to lose money.
You are the first one to use C & D by name. I'm not saying you are right ( or wrong), but this would be some news.
It's been confirmed by a lot of people I know, as well as from a few guys at Conrail themselves. Besides that, there have been other repots of C&D starting the prosses with STB over the route, so there's a better chance of this going through.
Interesting I missed that on the STB website. Can you post the link to the filings.
Nothing has actually been set in motion like I said, so there would likely the no documentation yet. These findings may not be true, but it is rumored to have begun.
  by Coast Line Railfan
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:50 pm @CoastLineRailfan I do know that North Jersey management has tried to get rid of the Southern as they want nothing to do with it, but nobody has told me that it was confirmed. Honestly it kinda seems like a bad idea for a few reasons.

1. Red Bank Yard can only hold about 15 cars and there isn't much room to expand.

2. The current route from South Amboy to Red Bank has strict limitations on the gross weight and height of cars, as well as restrictions on the types of cars that can come down. Only Plate E cars can come down, and the gross weight limit I believe is 263,000 pounds. This is 23000 pounds less than the national standard of 286,000 pounds.

3. If C&D takes over, then NJSL would have to have their cars be transferred through 2 separate railroads before they can be shipped to wherever via NS or CSX. This may lead to transfer fees and longer shipping times. They could theoretically take over NJSL as well, but I don't think NJSL would give that line up after spending so much money fixing it.

4. Without the Farmingdale to Freehold route, there is no backup route to the Southern. So if something happens on the Coast Line (i.e. storm damage or infrastructure problems) there could be very large delays in getting cars down to Red Bank. This exact situation occurred after Hurricane Sandy, and there wasn't a single freight or passenger train for weeks afterwards as the Coast Line was completely destroyed in some spots.

One more thing. If C&D or another railroad was going to take over, they would have to file a notice of exemption with Conrail, and this hasn't occurred yet.
1. Southern Yard would not be used at all, Conrail has no trackage rights in it and don't plan to get any, neither would the C&D, if they obtained the route.

2. Considering the three customers on the line do not require 286,000 pound cars, there really is no need for heavier cars, and since the sand is very likely not to happen, this is even less of a problem.

3. The "NJSL" wouldn't care how many railroads the cars went through considering cars for Woodhaven already come from all parts of North America, should they even begin operation.

4. If the C&D deal will go through, they intend to purchase the Freehold Industrial Track as well, most likely planning to use that instead of the Coast Line. Thus, this would negate the need to use the Coast Line and all of the apparently cumbersome restrictions. Storm damage would affect every line, not necessarily just the Coast Line. Though it may be closer to water, that doesn't mean it and only it will be affected.
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