• Oil trains for southern New Jersey

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

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  by johnnyloco
 
A 64D came in today (9/24/2012) with NS 9852, NS 2670, and BNSF 7467.

Seen here approaching CP Hatch and 36th Street in Pennsauken...
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212039
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212041

Trailing units...
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212043
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3212045

John D.
  by pumpers
 
Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS
  by bluedash2
 
pumpers wrote:Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS
NS has been bringing in over 100 cars lately, more like around 110. What they do is deliver about 75 cars (via CSAO from Pavonia yard), then after those empties get pulled, the remaining cars get delivered on a separate trip. The CP trains were bringing in around 77 cars but they haven't brought any in for a little while-it's been all NS.
  by johnnyloco
 
From what I heard, there won't be anymore 64Z trains. CP has handed over their Chicago based traffic to NS.
Just what I heard. I'm not familiar with their operations in that area. I'd like to hear more about that.
John D.
  by pumpers
 
pumpers wrote:Thanks. Does anyone know how to estimate how much diesel it takes to move those 80 (I think I read that is a common number for these trains?) tanks from North Dakota to NJ? Perhaps based on the number of miles and tons, or number of engines and hours, ... I wonder if the equivalent of one tank car is consumed just to get the oil here, or more. JS
I'll guess at an answer myself. I found on-line that CSX says it can move 1 ton of freight 500 miles on a gallon of diesel. http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/ ... fficiency/. From the N. Dakota/Montana border to PHiladelphia is ~1800 miles by car by google maps, so estimate 2000 miles by rail (not quite so direct). So that is 4 gallons per ton to go Philadlephia. A gallon of crude is about 7 pounds, and a tank car is about 30,000 gallons. That is 210,000 net pounds, plus the empty car, so maybe 250,000 total (probably less than the 263,000 limit on many lines), or 125 tons per tank car. 100 tanks in a train is 12,500 tons. Multiply by 4 gallons of diesel used per ton, you get 50,000 gallons, slighly less than 2 tankloads. Then there is the return trip of empties (much lighter). So figure about 60,000 gallons or 2 tankloads per 100 tank train round trip, which means 2% of the oil transported (assuming crude and diesel are equivalent). In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! Wow. Did I make a mistake?
30,000 gallons in a tank is about 700 barrels. For 100 tanks, 70,000 barrels. THen the crude which was moved was worth, if you assume $70/barrel, about $5,000,000. So about 5% of value of the oil is just fuel to move it.
JS
I wonder what the cost is of all the crew time, share of track maintenance and engine time, tank car wear and tear, overhead, etc compared to that. All together, I would guess at least as much as the fuel. Anyone know what the actual cost per gallon (or tank car) is roughtly to move this oil by train to NJ/Philadelphia, or roughtly what the railroads charge?
  by SecaucusJunction
 
Oh man... my head is spinning...
  by Jtgshu
 
Well its still cheaper and much quicker than building a pipeline inbetween the two places that the train is running!
  by kilroy
 
Boy, what's withthe sudden concen with how much fuel it takes to move a train? We're having a similar discussion over in the NJT forum.

Here is somwthing I posted there as support for the CSX claim.

Support for that claim:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... ght-train/

http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/freight ... les-gallon
  by michaelk
 
pumpers wrote:
pumpers wrote:.... In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! ...?
I'd GUESS that they dont pay "retail" prices for fuel. Airlines for example buy contracts to keep prices steady (But i guess they use tons more fuel)- Delta even bought a share of a refinery in Philly to get steady fuel costs. On a MUCH smaller size- even homeowners can "lock in" prices for home heating fuel for the eyar. Also I think something like 50 cents a gallon of diesel fuel at a truck stop is highway taxes...

That said- I dont think it's like they pay 40 cents - maybe $3 so you'd be in the ball park and it's well over $100k even if it's 25% cheaper.

Makes me wonder what it costs to ship a tanker from the middle east to the ports here.
  by Ken W2KB
 
michaelk wrote:
pumpers wrote:
pumpers wrote:.... In terms of $$$, 60,000 gallons x $4.00/gallon for diesel (maybe too high for bulk?) is $240,000 to move the 100 tanks! ...?
I'd GUESS that they dont pay "retail" prices for fuel. Airlines for example buy contracts to keep prices steady (But i guess they use tons more fuel)- Delta even bought a share of a refinery in Philly to get steady fuel costs. On a MUCH smaller size- even homeowners can "lock in" prices for home heating fuel for the eyar. Also I think something like 50 cents a gallon of diesel fuel at a truck stop is highway taxes...

That said- I dont think it's like they pay 40 cents - maybe $3 so you'd be in the ball park and it's well over $100k even if it's 25% cheaper.

Makes me wonder what it costs to ship a tanker from the middle east to the ports here.
That and railroads don't pay the motor vehicle taxes like trucks and autos do so the cost is reduced.
  by wolfboy8171981
 
I have no problem with CSX's claim.

However its misleading.

Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.
  by blockline4180
 
wolfboy8171981 wrote:
Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.
Wolf,

Is there any way you can elaborate on this?? Do you have any inside information or some sort of timetable when the oil train may start running into Linden, Perth Amboy or wherever else they are destined to go??

Also how many oil trains a day on the Lehigh line can you foresee in the future??

Thanks!
Steve
  by wolfboy8171981
 
blockline4180 wrote:
wolfboy8171981 wrote:
Just wait until the Crude Oil trains make North Jersey its port of call.
Wolf,

Is there any way you can elaborate on this?? Do you have any inside information or some sort of timetable when the oil train may start running into Linden, Perth Amboy or wherever else they are destined to go??

Also how many oil trains a day on the Lehigh line can you foresee in the future??

Thanks!
Steve
Let me put it this way. Think about where the trains go in South Jersey /PA/DE. Think about a few sites along the chemical coast, and how much larger they are. One Refinery has purchased 2000 tank cars. Yes i said 2000.

I do not see anything moving until sometime in 2014.
  by johnnyloco
 
2/2/2013
The Penn Central heritage unit arrived late night Friday/early Saturday morning on 64D at Pavonia Yard in Camden.

Seen here by the engine house-
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358174

Two from the State Street overpass-
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358172
http://manatree.rrpicturearchives.net/s ... id=3358173

John D.
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