Wolfeboro Railroad 2-6-2 #250

[steamer69]

Cosmo,
I'm sorry, but it is that simple when talking about a form 4. The form 4 requires that the tubes be removed, an x-ray and or UT be done, to inspect thickness on the barrel. So your 97 and MNG3 need the exact same inspections in order to be put back in service. As far as the FRA is concerned they are "retired" locomotives until the form 4 is complete. This means that the 97 has to be stripped bare same as they just did with 3025. Everything has to come off in order to mark all of the grids.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 49;cc=ecfr

Everyone else,
What you guys are failing to realize when "writing off" any locomotive is the fact that this stuff has to be done to locomotives that are "running". Some engines I have worked on started off as just a bag of rust....and are now running. One of them started with just wheels and a frame, and the wheels were no good. We here in New England are scared of steam projects except for a few locations. Until a form 4 is done all of the locomotives that are either not in service and or "dead" are created equal. Because until it's done...no one has any clue exactly how much work needs to be done on the boilers. They could mark out the grids on 97 and find a soft spot that has to be patched. No one knows for sure until the tubes come out and the inspection is done.

[Cosmo]

And steamer, my friend, what YOU are failing to realize is that 250 needs more than a Form 4.
1) There is damage to 250's boiler that goes WAY beyond anything 97 needs.
2) MRR 3 has a SPONSOR.... and even with that, as SMALL a locomotive as she is, she's continuing to suck funding out of said sponsor.
3) BOTH #3 and 97 actually have ALL of thier parts and ALL of thier appliances.
4) 250 has had WELDING done on her in places that PRECLUDE anything other than RE FABRICATION or TOTAL REPLACEMENT of pieces OTHER than her boiler...
5) Both #3 and 97 both have owners AND shop facilities willing to do the WORK on them.
But don't let me stop you Steamer. If you want to put the funds out to do a Form 4 on her, GO FOR IT and power to you. Just remember, she's a LOT bigger than MRR #3.

[steamer69]

Just remember, she's a LOT bigger than MRR #3

So is every standard gauge engine I have ever worked on....so you're point? The engine I'm working on now is twice the size of the lilliputs....

1. Major boiler work is major boiler work. 97 has to have her tubes and everything out for the inspection. What happens if they find a soft spot on her? They patch it....
OH NO! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END CAUSE WE HAVE TO PATCH IT!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
2. Good on them for having a sponsor. A form 4 is a form 4 is a form 4 whether or not there is a sponsor. The money has to come from somewhere....so the fact that the little one has a sponsor means not much since "she's continuing to suck funding out of said sponsor". A form 4 is a form 4 is a form 4....size really doesn't matter until you are replacing an entire boiler....and even then, sometimes size can be deceiving.
3. So what does having all of their parts have to do with doing a form 4? All of the parts have to be taken off to do it.
5. You know for a fact that 250 doesn't? Maybe he'll surprise everyone....lol.

[Cosmo]

Just remember, she's a LOT bigger than MRR #3

So is every standard gauge engine I have ever worked on....so you're point? The engine I'm working on now is twice the size of the lilliputs....

1. Major boiler work is major boiler work. 97 has to have her tubes and everything out for the inspection. What happens if they find a soft spot on her? They patch it....
OH NO! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END CAUSE WE HAVE TO PATCH IT!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
2. Good on them for having a sponsor. A form 4 is a form 4 is a form 4 whether or not there is a sponsor. The money has to come from somewhere....so the fact that the little one has a sponsor means not much since "she's continuing to suck funding out of said sponsor". A form 4 is a form 4 is a form 4....size really doesn't matter until you are replacing an entire boiler....and even then, sometimes size can be deceiving.
3. So what does having all of their parts have to do with doing a form 4? All of the parts have to be taken off to do it.
5. You know for a fact that 250 doesn't? Maybe he'll surprise everyone....lol.

No, dude... you aint LISTENING!
A Form 4 is MONEY... LOTS of it!
"Soft spot?" Try a NEW CROWN SHEET!
Ok, ok... when JDC shakes his head at it and says "it's dead," it's DEAD. Don't take MY word for it.
And again, there's a HELL of a lot more to the thing than JUST the boiler.
As for: " So what does having all of their parts have to do with doing a form 4? All of the parts have to be taken off to do it. "
WHAT?!?!?!? Ok, so... buy a new boiler for it. Hey, you got a BOILER.
A boiler itself is NOT a steam engine!
"all the parts" HAVE TO BE PUT BACK ON, IN WORKING ORDER AND BE ABLE TO PASS FRA....

Oh, but NO, it's ok... as long as the doggone BOILER passes inspection, the FRA will sign off on the WHOLE thing, right?
Including the wheels, breaks and couplers.... RIGHT?

WRONG!

So, it needs a boiler. It also needs ALL it's CAB APPLIANCES in order to function!
It also needs break components that have NOT been cut or WELDED!
SAME with he drivers!
Same with the COUPLERS.

As for MRR #3's sponsor, my point is this: The engine has someone who is WILLING to shell out the $$ for it to be fixed, as well as a shop DOING the work. Despite the fact that the job keeps getting more costly, they're STILL working on it. THAT kind of dedication is what it would take for ANY locomotive.

But tell me, how many FRA certified steam engines have you assisted in major repairs to?
(Passumpsic does not count, they are insular and not under FRA.)

[Pat Fahey]

HI all

In order to get the wolfeboro # 250 up and running again , it will take a pile of cash , can it be made to run again , sure as long as you have the people and equipment , in order to get the work done . When the # 250 when to Edaville she when in pieces , here is a photo of the # 250 in the K-mart parking lot in Milford, Mass . The reason why she is there , the trailer blew out a couple of tires carrying the Boiler of # 250 . Also while she was there I did notice that the Steam delivery pipes were cut in the smoke box , these are the pipes that deliver Steam to the cylinders . The photo was taken August 23, 2001.

[steamer69]

A Form 4 is MONEY... LOTS of it!

Like I said above and before. We're agreeing on that Pete, but that doesn't preclude the fact that it HAS to be done weather or not the engine has just been taken out of service or has been sitting there for 50 years.

"Soft spot?" Try a NEW CROWN SHEET!

Well then. If 97 needs a new crown sheet, I guess you will be finding out how heavy boiler work is done then won't you. It is a big deal, but it's not the end of the world that it's made out to be in New England.

Ok, ok... when JDC shakes his head at it and says "it's dead," it's DEAD. Don't take MY word for it.

David means that it is figuratively dead. Not that it can't be repaired. No where has he said that it can't be repaired. I've read a bunch of his reports, and he is a great inspector....like I said before, I worked on one engine that started as just a frame with some bad wheels (they had to be replaced)....and now it's running. We here in New England just assume that things like this are the end all of any steam locomotive. This is why New England is devoid of steam. We think that any engine here in an out of service status can't be repaired because it's "dead".

I know that there's a lot more than just the boiler work to do, but that is the first thing that people are screaming about. To most people, if the boiler is dead....the whole locomotive is dead. That is not the case. And are you saying that because the Passumpsic isn't FRA that our boiler work isn't relevant or up to the same standard? How about other places where your buddies work like Edaville, Booth Bay, WW&F, SR&RL and others like the Mount Washington Cog (up till a couple years ago). None of those are FRA, but they do FRA class work. Look at Booth Bay....they do work for a lot of people. But to answer your question, 5. How many you done Pete?

[Cosmo]

You mistook me. It is 250 that needs a new crown sheet, not 97.
97 will be easier to overhaul and cost considerably less than 250 because of that fact alone.
Also, the previous poster mentioned the steam delivery pipes being cut. Good luck welding on those.
My point is not that it is impossible, but that it is "prohibitively expensive."
Once it's repaired, where can it run where it will be able to haul enough passengers at reasonable ticket prices to make such a restoration worthwhile?
That is the major consideration.. will it EVER pay off the thousands of dollars it would take to restore?
Very simply, anyone in the market for a locomotive, even a "fixer-upper" would look at 250...

...and then go look someplace else.

[steamer69]

Go where else Cosmo? Only engines not spoken for are the MEC 470 (4-6-2), B&C 6 (0-6-2T), B&M 494 (4-4-0), MEC 501 (2-8-0),

470 hasn't been touched in years even though there has been attempts made. Nothing going on there......
6 is fluffed and stuffed, won't be able to do anything with that for a main line engine. She's a little too small to really do anything.
494 is a possibility, but hard to tell until someone does a survey on it. With a control box she could be an excursion looker.
501....I won't go there....

In terms of it paying off....if it's run right, it will pay off. You can make money running steam....Essex is a prime example.

[Cosmo]

Go where else Cosmo? Only engines not spoken for are the MEC 470 (4-6-2), B&C 6 (0-6-2T), B&M 494 (4-4-0), MEC 501 (2-8-0),

470 hasn't been touched in years even though there has been attempts made. Nothing going on there......
6 is fluffed and stuffed, won't be able to do anything with that for a main line engine. She's a little too small to really do anything.
494 is a possibility, but hard to tell until someone does a survey on it. With a control box she could be an excursion looker.
501....I won't go there....

In terms of it paying off....if it's run right, it will pay off. You can make money running steam....Essex is a prime example.

1) They would look OUTSIDE New England.
2) Essex did it's homework LONG ago. They, like CSRR are a long established business.
3) NONE of the engines in Essex came from New England originally. All were brought in from elsewhere. Most recent, 3025 came all thew way from CHINA (by way of PA.)
So, to use ESSEX as an example is perfectly fair AND supports what I say. When Essex wanted an additonal locomotive they did not choose 250, despite its being closer and most likely available for scrap value.
SO, if JDS wouldn't touch 250 with an 85' Pullman parlor car, given all his resources and available shop and crew...


...WHAT does that say about THAT locomotive?

[steamer69]

Um...that you guys took the easy way out? LMAO Just kidding Pete. I know how bad the rice burner was she got to Essex.

You are right about going outside of New England. We have let almost all of our engines go to pot, thus creating a situation where there aren't really any good restoration candidates. And by the way, never ever ever put the clowns at CSRX on the same page with the steam professionals at Essex. After reading the inspection reports from CSRX, it's going to take a LONG time for them to show that they are steam guys again. I mean really....how do you do a boiler wash without taking out the wash out plugs....

[Cosmo]

Um...that you guys took the easy way out? LMAO Just kidding Pete. I know how bad the rice burner was she got to Essex.

You are right about going outside of New England. We have let almost all of our engines go to pot, thus creating a situation where there aren't really any good restoration candidates. And by the way, never ever ever put the clowns at CSRX on the same page with the steam professionals at Essex. After reading the inspection reports from CSRX, it's going to take a LONG time for them to show that they are steam guys again. I mean really....how do you do a boiler wash without taking out the wash out plugs....

They're both SUCCESSFUL tourist railroads.
Oh, and they both have something anyone would need if they were ever going to try to actually run 250 and pull people with it...
...insurance!

[steamer69]

They both may be successful....but only one of the two is a respectable steam property. I'll give you a hint.....it isn't CSRX. More places than just CSRX and Essex have insurance. There are plenty of people who have it.

[Cosmo]

1) Except for a few malcontents, CSRX is WELL respected in the railroad and railfanning community at large. (think they're not? Ask MBRRE, their biggest repeat customer.)
2) If you think that the same insurance that a PERSON carries is all you need to carry ticket-paying customers behind a steam engine, or ANY locomotive you have a lot to learn about thee business end of the business.

[steamer69]

1.) Well, when those "few malcontents" includes 30 pages of FRA violation reports and 2 FRA inspectors who "don't trust them as far as I can spit"....Sorry Cosmo, I'll go with the FRA inspectors. Period. You can't debate the reports. You wana read them, I'll point you in the right direction. And as far as the MBRE....good for them. They take one (maybe 2) trips a year....that really pays the bills....NOT!

2.) Pete....do you really think I'm that dumb? Let me give you a little insight into this. ANYONE who owns private equipment (caboose, private cars, private locomotives) carries insurance. It's not hard to get. Go to the AARPCO or RPCA web sites and check it out. you want a few insurance companies to check out? here are ones that I work with

Heartford Steam Boiler Insurance
http://www.hsb.com/HSBGroup/

Railroad Insurance Services
http://railroadinsuranceservices.com/

Railroad Insurance Services of New England
http://railroad-insurance.com/index.htm

You really like to assume that I'm stupid.....come on Pete, I've been railroading a LONG time.

[Cosmo]

1.) Well, when those "few malcontents" includes 30 pages of FRA violation reports and 2 FRA inspectors who "don't trust them as far as I can spit"....Sorry Cosmo, I'll go with the FRA inspectors. Period. You can't debate the reports. You wana read them, I'll point you in the right direction. And as far as the MBRE....good for them. They take one (maybe 2) trips a year....that really pays the bills....NOT!

Ok, this is NOT the thread to discuss the FRA reports on CSRX, other than to say "they are inspected by FRA on a regular basis and they still run."
I have read those reports. They do not amount to what you'd like us all believe they do. They were addressed, and the RR is allowed to operate.
Now, did those reports drive up the cost of their insurance? I don't know. What I do know is that they're able to afford it. No matter what you think or say about them, they are ONE example of a financially successful tourist railroad operation based in New England. That is why I mention them, because they are able to keep ONE steam locomotive operating.
As for MBRRE, "not a big deal," huh? Take a look at the pictures I took at Steam In The Snow.
PICTURES DON'T LIE!

2.) Pete....do you really think I'm that dumb? Let me give you a little insight into this. ANYONE who owns private equipment (caboose, private cars, private locomotives) carries insurance. It's not hard to get. Go to the AARPCO or RPCA web sites and check it out. you want a few insurance companies to check out? here are ones that I work with

No, I do not. Actually, I think you are really smart (albeit jaded) guy.

Heartford Steam Boiler Insurance It's HARTford!
http://www.hsb.com/HSBGroup/
NO LONGER INSURES STEAM LOCOMOTIVES. Used to be the carrier for VRR, but got out of that phase. Now mostly or all STATIONARY boilers.

Railroad Insurance Services
http://railroadinsuranceservices.com/

Railroad Insurance Services of New England
http://railroad-insurance.com/index.htm

You really like to assume that I'm stupid.....come on Pete, I've been railroading a LONG time.

I never said you were. (see above)
But the bottom line is still thus:
#250 has a LOT more problems than just "soft spots" on the boiler.

I'll put it another way: The 501 is a better candidate, is more intact and would take less $$ to repair than WRR 250.