Montreal - Portland passenger service, past and future

[eastwind]

I'm surprised, really.
I hate to sound like Cowford (no 'fense, ) but is there really THAT much demand for Portland to Montreal service? Is there that much traffic between the two cities now?
Maybe there is and I just don't see it.

I don't see it either. As a train lover, I would love to see it but being practical I don't think there is enough demand for it and I don't think it could match the running time of either an automobile nor a bus serving some of the same intermediate points. I don't even think Boston - Montreal would work given the existing railroad facilities available and Boston - Montreal has a lot more potential than Portland - Montreal would.
Noel Weaver

You're probably right that there isn't enough demand for Portland-Montreal service. Boston-Montreal probably would work, if the Northern between Concord and White River Junction were still there. But since it isn't, despite all the talk of putting the rails back in, and the only other options would be by way of Palmer (bet CSX would love that) or Greenfield (bet PAR/PAS would adore that), what about Boston-Portland-Montreal?

[NRGeep]

"Back in the day", were there more folks traveling between Boston and Montreal? Not counting the Montrealer, there were three trains from North Station to Montreal from Boston. Do buses, airlines and autos equal the volume of people that utilized passenger trains to and from Montreal say in 1927?

[jaymac]

As I attempt my typing, there's a coolish rain falling, and since there's coolish water being thrown outside, I'm probably predisposed to throw coolish water myself. Where's the market or utility for rail travel between Boston and Montreal? Via Palmer will soon be via Springfield, adding more distance and time. Via Portland will mandate freight-train speeds because of SLR gradients and curvatures, even if signaling issues are remedied. Via the Northern will require an outlay of funding that won't happen in my hopefully-very-long lifetime. What's in place already is air service for those with the need for speed. Those who value cost-savings more have bus options. Those who want to set their own schedules have good highways already connecting the two cities. When the Knowledge Corridor becomes a known quantity and service gets reestablished to Gare Centrale and connecting schedules are reestablished to and from Springfield, those of us who want an adventure can and will experience one. Whatever our individual and shared qualities may be, we don't possess the quantity to create demand and viability for Boston-Montreal rail service.

[gokeefe]

While I would agree with jaymac that there is insufficient demand for Boston - Montreal service I think Portland - Montreal is ever so slightly more likely (e.g. 0.05% as opposed to 0.01%).

Why? Many of the conditions that jaymac describes are not present in Portland. There is no regular air service to Montreal, there aren't any direct express highways, and there is no bus service either. The impending arrangements for pre-clearance facilities in Montreal that will serve the Adirondack and ultimately the Vermonter mean that train travel to Montreal from Portland (using the SLR right of way) will likely be time competitive (if not faster) than driving.

It's probably also worth remembering that the CN rails leaving Montreal are faster than car travel for quite some distance prior to joining the SLR inside Canada.

[ferroequinarchaeologist]

Portland or Boston to Montreal, the demand dropped most significantly with the end of Prohibition. The separatist Quebec movement 30 - 40 years ago discouraged Americans from visiting while it was active. 9/11 added time-consuming anti-terrorism customs delays. In years past, the differential in value between the Canadian and American dollar in favor of either would also boost traffic one way or the other. None of those drivers exist now.

Drive or take the bus. The airline processing delays at the terminal add too much time to this short hop.

PBM

[Ridgefielder]

"Back in the day", were there more folks traveling between Boston and Montreal? Not counting the Montrealer, there were three trains from North Station to Montreal from Boston. Do buses, airlines and autos equal the volume of people that utilized passenger trains to and from Montreal say in 1927?

One hundred years ago Montreal was the undisputed commercial capital of the Dominion of Canada. The major banks, the railroads, and the big industrial companies were all headquartered there, and the Montreal stock exchange was the dominant exchange north of the border. The shift west to Toronto started in the '20s, gathered speed with the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway in the '50s (which meant that the bulk export trades no longer had to be based in Montreal but could move up the Great Lakes, closer to their sources), and then really got going when the Quebec Assembly passed the Official Language Act of 1974, which declared French to be the official language of the province.

The Language Act compelled any businesses wishing to remain in Montreal to translate their names into French or pay a fine, and a steep one at that. It also, perhaps even more importantly, provided that French was the only language permissable for commercial contracts, labor relations and business within the province. Pretty much the entire financial sector left the city for Toronto after that-- to the extent that today, the headquarters address of Bank of Montreal (one of the Big Five Canadian banks) is 100 King Street West, Toronto, ON.

[gokeefe]

In years past, the differential in value between the Canadian and American dollar in favor of either would also boost traffic one way or the other. None of those drivers exist now.

At 276 driving miles this journey is a nearly perfect distance for train travel. Old Orchard Beach is a destination for literally tens of thousands of French Canadians every year almost regardless of the currency fluctuations.

[eastwind]

Old Orchard Beach is a destination for literally tens of thousands of French Canadians every year almost regardless of the currency fluctuations.

Oui, mais....it is neither on the Mountain Division nor on the Saint Lawrence & Atlantic (former Grand Trunk). OOB is rather on the former B&M, which could be reached from the admittedly better-maintained SLR route via Yarmouth Junction on the recently upgraded Brunswick branch. If you're going to bring people down to Old Orchard (and where would you put the terminal's servicing facilities and turn-around tracks?), why not go the rest of the way to Boston? Serve two overlapping markets: Montreal-Old Orchard and northern Vermont/New Hampshire-Boston. You might even get some through passengers, to boot. Just a thought....

Go ahead, shoot me down.

And by the way, just because Montreal lost a few thousand hopelessly monolingual bankers (and I mean that in the nicest possible way—I was there in '75 when the great migration started) doesn't mean it's not a thriving, culturally vibrant city any more. Au contraire, mon chum.

eastwind

[eastwind]

"Back in the day", were there more folks traveling between Boston and Montreal? Not counting the Montrealer, there were three trains from North Station to Montreal from Boston. Do buses, airlines and autos equal the volume of people that utilized passenger trains to and from Montreal say in 1927?

Actually, there were six as recently as 1947, post-war.

The day trains were the Alouette, the Ambassador, and the Green Mountain Flyer—via Concord, Plymouth, Woodsville and the Canadian Pacific; via Concord, White River Jct. and the Central Vermont-Canadian National; and via Fitchburg, Keene, Bellows Falls and the Rutland RR, respectively.

The night trains were the Red Wing, the New Englander, and the Mount Royal, respectively.

After the Rutland went under in 1953, that still left four.

The Montrealer ran from Washington and New York up the Conn River Line.

But we are drifting a little O/T....

eastwind

[ferroequinarchaeologist]

Mais non .. I think we're "on track" (a little railroad humor there) over the past few responses in concluding that the potential for traffic to Montreal no longer exists because the Montreal that was a market for rail traffic no longer exists.

PBM

[TomNelligan]

Old Orchard Beach is a destination for literally tens of thousands of French Canadians every year almost regardless of the currency fluctuations.

That's true in June, July, and August, but who's going to ride from Montreal to Old Orchard Beach the other nine months of the year? Seasonal ridership isn't going to support the infrastructure costs.

On this subject in general, as I have written before, the current lack of meaningful Montreal-Portland public transportation by other means (air or bus) strongly suggests that there is no commercially viable market for public transportation on that route. It's so easy to start up a bus line these days that someone would have done so if there was any significant demand.

[gokeefe]

Old Orchard Beach is a destination for literally tens of thousands of French Canadians every year almost regardless of the currency fluctuations.

Oui, mais....it is neither on the Mountain Division nor on the Saint Lawrence & Atlantic (former Grand Trunk). OOB is rather on the former B&M, which could be reached from the admittedly better-maintained SLR route via Yarmouth Junction on the recently upgraded Brunswick branch. If you're going to bring people down to Old Orchard (and where would you put the terminal's servicing facilities and turn-around tracks?), why not go the rest of the way to Boston? Serve two overlapping markets: Montreal-Old Orchard and northern Vermont/New Hampshire-Boston. You might even get some through passengers, to boot. Just a thought....

Go ahead, shoot me down.

No need....

While I think it would be great to provide service Boston - Montreal via Portland I think others have made some pretty strong points that indicate ridership for such a trip would likely be quite weak. I'm definitely aware of where OOB is on the state' rail network. Worst case scenario you could service trains in Portland and then "deadhead" to OOB. For a train that would only be running "once a day each way" short positioning moves such as this probably wouldn't be a big deal.

OOB would probably need a station track installed but there's space in the RoW for that. There is not however any money for such things at present. But that's a different issue than operational feasibility.

[Ridgefielder]

And by the way, just because Montreal lost a few thousand hopelessly monolingual bankers (and I mean that in the nicest possible way—I was there in '75 when the great migration started) doesn't mean it's not a thriving, culturally vibrant city any more. Au contraire, mon chum.

eastwind

Didn't mean to imply it wasn't thriving and culturally vibrant- it certainly is both. Just that the business travel market between Boston and Montreal that way-back-when supported 6-a-day between North Station and Gare Centrale isn't what it was. Unless you're doing business with CN, Alcan or Hydro-Quebec, you're likely going to Toronto (or Calgary), not Montreal.

[S1f3432]

gokeefe said "Worst case scenario you could service trains in Portland and then "deadhead" to OOB."

Deja vu- that's what the Maine Coast Special did back in the 1930's- service the power at Rigby with the
train laying over at Portland Union Station as described in "CN Lines" a few issues back. CN continued to
run weekend summertime round trips for beach traffic thru the summer of 1967.

[gokeefe]

CN continued to run weekend summertime round trips for beach traffic thru the summer of 1967.

While I don't know if CN's decision to continue to run these trains so late in the "legacy era" of passenger service in the United States was related to passenger volumes or not, I do think there are still very consistent and reliable volumes of visitors from Quebec. They would form the backbone of ridership in the spring, summer and fall. Since the SLR goes by Sunday River I think there is also very good potential for ridership from Canada in the wintertime. OOB could be a seasonal extension just as it is with the Downeaster.