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  • MBTA F40PH preservation?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #1189794  by Otto Vondrak
 
MEC407 wrote:Otto is correct that it wouldn't be easy, it wouldn't be affordable, and it might not even be possible... but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be worthwhile. There are lots of good projects that aren't successful. I've had the unpleasant experience of trying to save a locomotive, and failing, but I still feel good about the fact that I tried to save it.
Never said it wasn't worthwhile... Just trying to educate our young friend. I have a feeling MEC407 knows all too well...

-otto-
 #1189818  by p42thedowneaster
 
Otto,
Of course I'm going to challenge your dismissal....you picked apart my whole opinion piece line by line.
Life is too short! If you can't dream and have fun with your hobby, then why do it? Everyone I know in railway preservation also knows the reality, but it hasn't killed the fun.
Last edited by p42thedowneaster on Wed May 29, 2013 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1189885  by MEC407
 
I bet Edaville could find a spot to park MBTA #1000... but they'd probably do something silly like painting it in Santa Fe Warbonnet (like they did with their MBTA F10). :wink: (Do they still have that locomotive?)

Back on topic, is there anywhere in the greater Boston area where an F40 could potentially be stuffed and mounted? Obviously that's not an ideal scenario for those of us who like to see locomotives operating, but it might be the most practical/plausible scenario at this point. 3000 HP is more than most scenic/tourist railroads need, and most can't afford the fuel costs associated with a locomotive that powerful. That's one of the reasons why Maine Eastern switched from F40s to FL9s. And, quite frankly, Maine Eastern was probably in a better financial situation than most other scenic roads. If MERR couldn't make it work, I suspect that the smaller operations in New England would find it even more difficult.
 #1189890  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Jesus, this is petty. Image


There ARE operating F40PH's at RR museums run by volunteers, and on scenic RR's. Here's every ex-Amtrak unit still kicking around in non-cabbage service: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F40PH#Exta ... k_examples" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Count 'em up.

Feasibility and relevance of maintaining these engines at a skunkworks op was a question settled long ago. If anyone wants to pick nits with whether a specific operator or museum in the region can handle it...yes, that's a fair question. But it's not 'foamer' flamebait to pose the question about whether an MBTA Screamer could be maintained by a similar type of RR. Because they're identical to the AMTK units that are...already out there.


Personally, I think the commuter rail aftermarket is so strapped for warm bodies that nearly every one of these is headed right back out into regular service for a public authority via the MPI lease program. With possible exception of "Mr. Commuter Rail" this isn't going to be a consideration because CR-condition engines (even the worn-out ones) are just in that much demand right now. The museums will be waiting a few years to get them thirdhand like the AMTK engines. And somebody will have to re-paint them in T livery. That's how it should be. If they retain enough residual value to keep running for benefit of some other region's daily commuters at slightly less punishing load, that's the best possible retirement present these very successful engines could ever get. And the T will recover some of that resale value in real money.

Ain't nothing to complain about with that scenario. They're going to be around a very long time.
 #1189895  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
MEC407 wrote:Back on topic, is there anywhere in the greater Boston area where an F40 could potentially be stuffed and mounted? Obviously that's not an ideal scenario for those of us who like to see locomotives operating, but it might be the most practical/plausible scenario at this point. 3000 HP is more than most scenic/tourist railroads need, and most can't afford the fuel costs associated with a locomotive that powerful. That's one of the reasons why Maine Eastern switched from F40s to FL9s. And, quite frankly, Maine Eastern was probably in a better financial situation than most other scenic roads. If MERR couldn't make it work, I suspect that the smaller operations in New England would find it even more difficult.
Cape Cod Central? They do have a pre-existing relationship with the T and are looking to expand into more general-purpose service. Right now GP7 1501 is the primary dinner train power, but ever since ALCO 1201 was scrapped and GP7 1502 went out-of-service they've been pooling engines with the MassCoastal freight fleet and have them all painted in the same scheme. 1501 is only 1500 HP. Beefiest MassCoastal engine right now is a GP28 of 1800 HP. 3000 HP might still be a little overpowered for them, but their freight business is growing and they might want more power to track with growth. If the price is right they could certainly put one into pool service since it would be more than capable for their freight loads. Especially if CSX gets an itch to offload more local work onto MC on the Middleboro Secondary and Old Colony between M'boro-Braintree to consolidate its South Shore job to interchange-only. If it got a cab signal unit the T would certainly trust it for MC freight or CCCR excursions on their own track.
 #1189899  by p42thedowneaster
 
Sorry guys....I'll try to use the PM service next time.

Edaville is not a bad idea....I could see #1000 stuffed and mounted....and being a huge hit with the kids if they could have access to the cab.

Cape Cod is also a great idea, but I worry it wouldn't be appreciated as much while having the MBTA Cape Flyer operating.

There's also Lowell, Ma where the B&M 0-6-0 and combine are displayed. I think this at, or near, the B&M historical society. I think you can say, at this point, MBTA #1000 is an honorary B&M loco?

Ohh and what about the Boston Museum of Science?....think B&M 3713!
 #1189903  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:Cape Cod is also a great idea, but I worry it wouldn't be appreciated as much while having the MBTA Cape Flyer operating.
Not necessarily. They're restoring a Budd in the yard into operating condition to offer up more services. They've got Iowa Pacific's massive pool of excursion cars to tap. And they've been lobbying to get more types of passenger trains running. Including to Taunton, Fall River, and New Bedford using MC's new freight rights. CapeFLYER can't be the be-all/end-all. Bourne and all on-Cape towns are outside the MBTA district. Wareham is the last in-district town. CCRTA is the operator of that service, with the T and MassDOT partners...because the T can't by its charter operate service outside the district by itself. So to scale up to something more substantial isn't something they can initiate on their own...it all has to run through CCRTA. If they wanted to extend commuter rail permanently from Middleboro to Buzzards Bay, Bourne would vote to join the district in a heartbeat. But that's a lot more on-Cape towns to settle up for any regular, substantial service to reach across the bridge. And keep in mind, adjoining towns with no transit inside their borders have a district-join vote too when their citizens are heavy beneficiaries of the park-and-ride distance. Like Wareham is with Middleboro/Lakeville station. So it's quite likely they'd have to settle up with all 7 Lower and Mid-Cape towns...maybe also Brewster and Dennis...joining the district before they'd "own" primary passenger rail service to Hyannis.

That's a lot of leeway for CCCR to fill in the gaps on its home turf. These upgrades are intended to benefit them as well. And the freight factor carries statewide strategic interest, which is why MassCoastal and CCCR have merged their fleet of power into a common pool. Outside of the Budd(s) any new locos they acquire are going to be doing freight jobs when they're off-duty from CCCR. That's where their primary interest in a 3000 HP engine might be if the price is cheap enough. They might be primary passenger engines, but an F40PH could haul MC's generally lightish loads in its sleep. And like I said, cab signal-equipped the T would totally trust them as known quantities to roam into their territory pulling a freight consist.
 #1189940  by Otto Vondrak
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:Otto,
Of course I'm going to challenge your dismissal....you picked apart my whole opinion piece line by line.
I was asking you to think about your statements. Words have meaning.
Life is too short! If you can't dream and have fun with your hobby, then why do it?
Yes, dreams! Dreams are wonderful! Without dreams, there'd be nothing saved. Except that unless you take ACTION, all you're doing is whistlin' in the wind.
Everyone I know in railway preservation also knows the reality, but it hasn't killed the fun.
Ah, I see. Because I'm questioning the reality of your idea, it's no longer fun. Are you willing to put in any work to save your F40, or just sit around and pout? You started this conversation, you've got people thinking, so what's your next move?

And that's for anyone... Who wants to save an MBTA F40?

-otto-
 #1190020  by p42thedowneaster
 
To all,
In hindsight, I should have ignored the rudeness...and I should never have played into this.

I have no intention to start a preservation group for MBTA F40PHs, ever. I do not want to work at, or volunteer at any preservation society at the present time. I would be happy to contribute in some other way, whether by train fare or donations etc...

The purpose of this topic was simply to suggest that an MBTA F40PH might have the same historical value in 30 years as B&M F7 4266 does today.

If this conversation is completely worthless to you, then please do not continue to bother with it.

As we have discussed, there are definitely suitable places for an F40PH to find green pastures in NE....dead or alive. Whether or not these existing organizations actually want one is not my decision. However, I think there is some value in discussing this here because it might inform preservation groups that people are interested. It brings up the fact that there is one particularly special locomotive, the #1000, which would be the most ideal candidate. If they're going to run it, now is the time to grab it...in 30 years it will be much more difficult to restore.
 #1190169  by Otto Vondrak
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:In hindsight, I should have ignored the rudeness...and I should never have played into this.
I didn't realize pointing out facts was "rude?" And nobody's "playing" you.
The purpose of this topic was simply to suggest that an MBTA F40PH might have the same historical value in 30 years as B&M F7 4266 does today.
You were quite specific about saving an engine, what paint scheme it must be, and then you rattled off a list of places where it could live. But you skipped a bunch of steps in between. If you're serious about saving one of these engines (and it sounds like you might be) then I'm merely trying to help you understand what it takes to make it happen.
As we have discussed, there are definitely suitable places for an F40PH to find green pastures in NE....dead or alive. Whether or not these existing organizations actually want one is not my decision. However, I think there is some value in discussing this here because it might inform preservation groups that people are interested. It brings up the fact that there is one particularly special locomotive, the #1000, which would be the most ideal candidate. If they're going to run it, now is the time to grab it...in 30 years it will be much more difficult to restore.
So far not one preservation group in New England has jumped up to grab one. So if you think there's a significant case for saving an MBTA F40, you should make it! I mean literally write a descriptive paragraph about what makes this locomotive unique and worthy of preservation. That is the first step... Then work up the costs of procurement (purchase price, transport, cranes and rigging needed at both locations, over-the-road permits), the cost of display (cosmetic restoration, abatements and remediation, building display track, maintenance budget), and the eventual cost of mechanical restoration (too many points to list right now).

I'm just going to point this out as an example of procuring a historic diesel from a commuter authority. The transport costs were less because the locomotive was able to be shipped on its own wheels and the RMNE is connected to Metro-North, but read how long the process was just to procure the last production FL9 (and the last production F-unit):

http://naugy.blogspot.com/2007/10/new-h ... d-fl9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-otto-is-not-such-a-bad-guy-when-you-get-to-know-him-
 #1190179  by p42thedowneaster
 
Otto Vondrak wrote:
So far not one preservation group in New England has jumped up to grab one. So if you think there's a significant case for saving an MBTA F40, you should make it! I mean literally write a descriptive paragraph about what makes this locomotive unique and worthy of preservation. That is the first step... Then work up the costs of procurement (purchase price, transport, cranes and rigging needed at both locations, over-the-road permits), the cost of display (cosmetic restoration, abatements and remediation, building display track, maintenance budget), and the eventual cost of mechanical restoration (too many points to list right now).

I'm just going to point this out as an example of procuring a historic diesel from a commuter authority. The transport costs were less because the locomotive was able to be shipped on its own wheels and the RMNE is connected to Metro-North, but read how long the process was just to procure the last production FL9 (and the last production F-unit):

http://naugy.blogspot.com/2007/10/new-h ... d-fl9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-otto-is-not-such-a-bad-guy-when-you-get-to-know-him-
Otto,
Thank you. I truly appreciate this advice, and perhaps I will write to someone on the matter. I think there are a few directions now worth exploring.
I was rather offended by the second paragraph of your first response. If directed at you, I think you would be offended as well. It was rather inconsequential, but I'm not afraid to defend myself when I feel I'm being belittled.
 #1190184  by p42thedowneaster
 
F-line,
Would CCCR have to maintain any Amtrak certification to remain useful for what you're describing? I'm wondering what sort of costs would entail. Also, would they be likely to run this engine solo, thus requiring it to operate leading in both directions?
 #1190228  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:F-line,
Would CCCR have to maintain any Amtrak certification to remain useful for what you're describing? I'm wondering what sort of costs would entail. Also, would they be likely to run this engine solo, thus requiring it to operate leading in both directions?
I don't see why Amtrak certification would factor. MC has no rights to AMTK territory and even if CSX shoved the M'boro Secondary and Old Colony main local customers onto them they would never be allowed to the switch onto the NEC at Attleboro Jct. That would give P&W's an exposed flank at East Junction to start vulturing interchange business, and CSX would never incur that risk. They want their 'outsource' shortlines like MC and G&U landlocked. Attleboro Jct. to Braintree Yard and all points in between are safely landlocked and surrounded by CSX.

MC/CCCR has full wyes at Middleboro next to the yard, New Bedford next to the yard, Otis AFB, and Barnstable for turning power. I don't even know if Pan Am has that many turning options in-state, so they're blessed with an abundant spread.
 #1190286  by MEC407
 
I think we'd all like to see that!

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible and I'm not saying it's never happened before, but I do stand by my statement that an F40 would be a relatively expensive locomotive for a museum or a small tourist railroad to operate. In addition to the issue of fuel consumption, there's also the issue of turbo maintenance... which becomes even more problematic if the locomotive is spending most of its time in the lower throttle notches, as is often the case with light tourist trains. This is one of many reasons why early Geeps and F-units are so well-suited to that type of service, and why we generally don't see turbocharged EMDs on those types of railroads very often. Again, I'm not saying it's never happened or that it's not doable; I'm just saying it's an important consideration to keep in mind before getting one's hopes up. (For technical reasons that I don't fully understand at this point, EMD turbos seem to be more problematic in that type of service than Alco or GE turbos. We do see turbo Alcos operating quite frequently in low-speed light-duty service, and to a lesser extent turbo GEs as well, both seemingly tolerating that type of service with few ill effects.)