Premature abandoments(?)

[Cosmo]

A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

If all of the above survived to more recent times I ask where do you think the freight business would come from to insure the survival of these particular routes? The simple issue is that the freight business that kept these lines in operation is no longer there, it is simply gone, industries closed, shippers and receivers of freight are gone but the maintenance, taxes and other costs would still be around. Without the Poughkeepsie Bridge the Maybrook Line had very little business, the O & W was a gone goose many years before its finale in 1957 and the Midland had grades, little business and other operating problems and with the mergers it was certainly not needed.
Let's face it, without Metro-North and Amtrak there would be much less railroad mileage in Southern Connecticut and especially Connecticut. I think it is possible that there might be more abandonments in Southern New England down the road.
Noel Weaver

Believe it or not, Noel, I agree with you 100% and then some.
The Midland was the less competitive E/W route, but it was all the NH had to the North and West. When PC got it, it was an albatross to them and they already had the B&A. "Why keep it?"
Also, the aforementioned Poughkepsie - Highland bridge was a HUGE maintenance cost for them, and to try to upgrade it further for even heavier loads than what was seen by the 1950's would have been both problematic and costly. By the 1970's, there was just no money left in the route and only the connections with the EL and CNJ were keeping it going (the CNJ may even have been gone by then, not sure.) But the EL traffic wasn't paying for the cost of keeping the line open, or if it was, only just barely.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the line were still going, and the Air Line too for that matter, but there was nothing "premature" about it. The line just ran it's time out.

[FLRailFan1]

A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

If all of the above survived to more recent times I ask where do you think the freight business would come from to insure the survival of these particular routes? The simple issue is that the freight business that kept these lines in operation is no longer there, it is simply gone, industries closed, shippers and receivers of freight are gone but the maintenance, taxes and other costs would still be around. Without the Poughkeepsie Bridge the Maybrook Line had very little business, the O & W was a gone goose many years before its finale in 1957 and the Midland had grades, little business and other operating problems and with the mergers it was certainly not needed.
Let's face it, without Metro-North and Amtrak there would be much less railroad mileage in Southern Connecticut and especially Connecticut. I think it is possible that there might be more abandonments in Southern New England down the road.
Noel Weaver

Believe it or not, Noel, I agree with you 100% and then some.
The Midland was the less competitive E/W route, but it was all the NH had to the North and West. When PC got it, it was an albatross to them and they already had the B&A. "Why keep it?"
Also, the aforementioned Poughkepsie - Highland bridge was a HUGE maintenance cost for them, and to try to upgrade it further for even heavier loads than what was seen by the 1950's would have been both problematic and costly. By the 1970's, there was just no money left in the route and only the connections with the EL and CNJ were keeping it going (the CNJ may even have been gone by then, not sure.) But the EL traffic wasn't paying for the cost of keeping the line open, or if it was, only just barely.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the line were still going, and the Air Line too for that matter, but there was nothing "premature" about it. The line just ran it's time out.

A friend of mine dad (who was a NEw Haven Engineer, then a PC engineer before retiring as a Amtrak engineer) said that PC people set fire to the Poughkeepsie Bridge. I think if the NH was not included in PC the Maybrook line would be busy.

[Noel Weaver]

A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

If all of the above survived to more recent times I ask where do you think the freight business would come from to insure the survival of these particular routes? The simple issue is that the freight business that kept these lines in operation is no longer there, it is simply gone, industries closed, shippers and receivers of freight are gone but the maintenance, taxes and other costs would still be around. Without the Poughkeepsie Bridge the Maybrook Line had very little business, the O & W was a gone goose many years before its finale in 1957 and the Midland had grades, little business and other operating problems and with the mergers it was certainly not needed.
Let's face it, without Metro-North and Amtrak there would be much less railroad mileage in Southern Connecticut and especially Connecticut. I think it is possible that there might be more abandonments in Southern New England down the road.
Noel Weaver

Believe it or not, Noel, I agree with you 100% and then some.
The Midland was the less competitive E/W route, but it was all the NH had to the North and West. When PC got it, it was an albatross to them and they already had the B&A. "Why keep it?"
Also, the aforementioned Poughkepsie - Highland bridge was a HUGE maintenance cost for them, and to try to upgrade it further for even heavier loads than what was seen by the 1950's would have been both problematic and costly. By the 1970's, there was just no money left in the route and only the connections with the EL and CNJ were keeping it going (the CNJ may even have been gone by then, not sure.) But the EL traffic wasn't paying for the cost of keeping the line open, or if it was, only just barely.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the line were still going, and the Air Line too for that matter, but there was nothing "premature" about it. The line just ran it's time out.

A friend of mine dad (who was a NEw Haven Engineer, then a PC engineer before retiring as a Amtrak engineer) said that PC people set fire to the Poughkeepsie Bridge. I think if the NH was not included in PC the Maybrook line would be busy.

With regard to the last sentence here, this is nonsense. Nobody would set fire to a structure of that nature. Penn Central might have neglected the bridge but then Penn Central neglected a lot more than just the Poughkeepsie Bridge. Fire or no fire the Maybrook Line would not have been active today anyway, there simply was no business to justify it. How many times to I have to stress this, the BUSINESS IS SIMPLY NO MORE PERIOD.
Noel Weaver

[ebtmikado]

The name of the PC manager who set the arson fire is well known among PC people.

[FLRailFan1]

A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

If all of the above survived to more recent times I ask where do you think the freight business would come from to insure the survival of these particular routes? The simple issue is that the freight business that kept these lines in operation is no longer there, it is simply gone, industries closed, shippers and receivers of freight are gone but the maintenance, taxes and other costs would still be around. Without the Poughkeepsie Bridge the Maybrook Line had very little business, the O & W was a gone goose many years before its finale in 1957 and the Midland had grades, little business and other operating problems and with the mergers it was certainly not needed.
Let's face it, without Metro-North and Amtrak there would be much less railroad mileage in Southern Connecticut and especially Connecticut. I think it is possible that there might be more abandonments in Southern New England down the road.
Noel Weaver

Believe it or not, Noel, I agree with you 100% and then some.
The Midland was the less competitive E/W route, but it was all the NH had to the North and West. When PC got it, it was an albatross to them and they already had the B&A. "Why keep it?"
Also, the aforementioned Poughkepsie - Highland bridge was a HUGE maintenance cost for them, and to try to upgrade it further for even heavier loads than what was seen by the 1950's would have been both problematic and costly. By the 1970's, there was just no money left in the route and only the connections with the EL and CNJ were keeping it going (the CNJ may even have been gone by then, not sure.) But the EL traffic wasn't paying for the cost of keeping the line open, or if it was, only just barely.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the line were still going, and the Air Line too for that matter, but there was nothing "premature" about it. The line just ran it's time out.

A friend of mine dad (who was a NEw Haven Engineer, then a PC engineer before retiring as a Amtrak engineer) said that PC people set fire to the Poughkeepsie Bridge. I think if the NH was not included in PC the Maybrook line would be busy.

With regard to the last sentence here, this is nonsense. Nobody would set fire to a structure of that nature. Penn Central might have neglected the bridge but then Penn Central neglected a lot more than just the Poughkeepsie Bridge. Fire or no fire the Maybrook Line would not have been active today anyway, there simply was no business to justify it. How many times to I have to stress this, the BUSINESS IS SIMPLY NO MORE PERIOD.
Noel Weaver

Noel:

The fire was set. My friend's dad saw the PC pepople hanging out at the bridge. The PC people told Poughkeepsie that the bridge will be rebuilt and reopen in 9 months, but Pc didn't keep their word. Of course, I believe if the NH wasn't forced to merge into the PC, I think the NH would still be around... maybe with less mileage, but maybe the L&HR would be part of the NH (of course, on my model rr, Cedar yard in busy, because I made the NH into a class 1 line...bits of the O&W, L&HR, the E-L, bits of the D&H, bits of PC (including the Adrondack route), and a bit of the monon, wabash and MoPac lines. (my NH goes from KC to Boston, Richmond, VA to Montreal with a few short lines being owned by the NH.)

When Congress forced to NH to merge with PC, I knew congress shouldn't be telling businesses what to do...(and I was only 8)

[TomNelligan]

Urban legends are a wonderful thing, aren't they? Just because a story has been passed around for 40 years doesn't necessarily make it true. My guess is that the PC guy who set fire to the bridge was also the second gunman who shot JFK.

As one who spent a lot of time riding, photographing, and writing about the New Haven RR in its final years (although unlike Mr. Weaver I wasn't working for the railroad), I know from personal experience how desperate its finances were in 1968. If the NH hadn't been force-fed to Penn Central at the end of 1968, it would have probably shut down completely within a year or so due to a lack of cash to make payroll. It survived as long as it did only thanks to state and Federal government loans that were meant to keep it running until the merger. If you think government intervention in railroading is inappropriate, then you would have cut off the money that was keeping the NH alive at the end. Once the NH ran out of cash, the bankruptcy trustees that were supervising its operation would have had to liquidate the assets and sell off whatever was viable to connecting railroads, shortline operators, and/or the states. That wouldn't have been a choice for NH management; it would be how bankruptcy law works.

[Noel Weaver]

Urban legends are a wonderful thing, aren't they? Just because a story has been passed around for 40 years doesn't necessarily make it true. My guess is that the PC guy who set fire to the bridge was also the second gunman who shot JFK.

I totally agree. Penn Central did not particularly want the New Haven but they got it and did the best they could considering the daily loss of freight business and the lack of general support of the passenger service. Were they perfect? Of course not but if they did not take over the New Haven would have been totally shut down and the fine railroaders on the New Haven would have lost their jobs, say nothing that many locations would have completely lost all of their rail service. That could not be allowed to happen and thankfully it did not happen. Both the New Haven and later the Penn Central had their share of faults but the terrible management of the New Haven from the start of the McGinnis period until the bankrupty and take over by the trustrees was very much responsible for the early downfall of the New Haven although I don't think it had much of a chance of survival no matter what. As to the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire, it has been a popular legend among New Haven people for some time that a Penn Central official or maybe I should say a Penn Central somebody started that fire. That did NOT happen and there will never be any satisfactory evidence that it did EVER. Penn Central might have made a lot of unpopular moves but they did save the New Haven Railroad and we need to leave it at that.
Noel Weaver

[FLRailFan1]

Urban legends are a wonderful thing, aren't they? Just because a story has been passed around for 40 years doesn't necessarily make it true. My guess is that the PC guy who set fire to the bridge was also the second gunman who shot JFK.

As one who spent a lot of time riding, photographing, and writing about the New Haven RR in its final years (although unlike Mr. Weaver I wasn't working for the railroad), I know from personal experience how desperate its finances were in 1968. If the NH hadn't been force-fed to Penn Central at the end of 1968, it would have probably shut down completely within a year or so due to a lack of cash to make payroll. It survived as long as it did only thanks to state and Federal government loans that were meant to keep it running until the merger. If you think government intervention in railroading is inappropriate, then you would have cut off the money that was keeping the NH alive at the end. Once the NH ran out of cash, the bankruptcy trustees that were supervising its operation would have had to liquidate the assets and sell off whatever was viable to connecting railroads, shortline operators, and/or the states. That wouldn't have been a choice for NH management; it would be how bankruptcy law works.

If you think the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire is an urban legend, fine, but when my friend's dad told me, I was asking him about the U25s that he drove for the NH. I didn't ask him, but he told me that when he crossed the Hudson, PC guys were walking around the bridge and an hour later, it burned?

Sorry, PC should have been investigated.

[Cosmo]

If you think the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire is an urban legend, fine, but when my friend's dad told me, I was asking him about the U25s that he drove for the NH. I didn't ask him, but he told me that when he crossed the Hudson, PC guys were walking around the bridge and an hour later, it burned?

Sorry, PC should have been investigated.

With all due respect, the only thing that that means is that your friend's dad believes that's what happened and that you believe him.
I know people who saw people walking around outside the Pentagon the day before 911 happened... so what?
Not exactly court-admissible evidence.
And either way, the abandonment itself was not premature.
If you really want to discuss the PKHB fire, there are other forums both on and off of this site.

[FLRailFan1]

If you think the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire is an urban legend, fine, but when my friend's dad told me, I was asking him about the U25s that he drove for the NH. I didn't ask him, but he told me that when he crossed the Hudson, PC guys were walking around the bridge and an hour later, it burned?

Sorry, PC should have been investigated.

With all due respect, the only thing that that means is that your friend's dad believes that's what happened and that you believe him.
I know people who saw people walking around outside the Pentagon the day before 911 happened... so what?
Not exactly court-admissible evidence.
And either way, the abandonment itself was not premature.
If you really want to discuss the PKHB fire, there are other forums both on and off of this site.

Where is the place on here to discuss the FIRE?? IIRC, PC said in the Poughkeepsie paper that they will reopen the bridge in 7 months (I was reading the Poughkeepsie paper in their library a few years ago). Now, I still think the Maybrook branch would be busy if CONGRESS didn't force the NH into PC. I still think the Midland Route (Manchester to Willimantic) would be great for commuters (RT 6 sucks) and for the NEC/CSO and the P&W.

[Cosmo]

Look for the Pen Central forum under the railroad-specific forums.

[Noel Weaver]

If you think the Poughkeepsie Bridge fire is an urban legend, fine, but when my friend's dad told me, I was asking him about the U25s that he drove for the NH. I didn't ask him, but he told me that when he crossed the Hudson, PC guys were walking around the bridge and an hour later, it burned?

Sorry, PC should have been investigated.

With all due respect, the only thing that that means is that your friend's dad believes that's what happened and that you believe him.
I know people who saw people walking around outside the Pentagon the day before 911 happened... so what?
Not exactly court-admissible evidence.
And either way, the abandonment itself was not premature.
If you really want to discuss the PKHB fire, there are other forums both on and off of this site.

Where is the place on here to discuss the FIRE?? IIRC, PC said in the Poughkeepsie paper that they will reopen the bridge in 7 months (I was reading the Poughkeepsie paper in their library a few years ago). Now, I still think the Maybrook branch would be busy if CONGRESS didn't force the NH into PC. I still think the Midland Route (Manchester to Willimantic) would be great for commuters (RT 6 sucks) and for the NEC/CSO and the P&W.

What do you intend to run on your fantasy railroad to Maybrook crossing the Poughkeepsie Bridge? Maybe a couple of engines which burn diesel fuel and some empty cars from somewhere. HOW MANY TIMES DO I AND OTHERS HAVE TO TELL YOU THE BUSINESS IS SIMPLY GONE, THATS G O N E.
Commuter service on the Midland, the service died at Blackstone because there was not enough ridership to support it and this was way back in the New Haven days. Franklin is the end of the line out of Boston and it will stay that way. The only concession I will make is that the New Haven made a mistake in not rebuilding the bridge in Putnam in 1955 but even if they had rebuilt that particular bridge the line would not be in use today because again there was and is not enough business to warrant its operation and the important points still have service via other routes. Have I made it clear? As for forcing the New Haven in to the Penn Central, if this had not happened the chances are that the entire railroad would have been shut down for lack of funds to operate it, things were that bad in 1968, I know, I was working for them at that time.
Noel Weaver

[trainsinmaine]

As my username obviates, I live in Maine, which --- along with the rest of New England --- has lost hundreds of miles of rails over the last several decades for precisely the reason that Noel has pointed out: there simply is no longer any local business along these former routes. The pulp-and-paper industry is all that keeps the MEC's (PanAm's) branch lines operating in Maine. Heavy manufacturing is all but gone in New England, and cars long ago replaced passenger trains except for Amtrak and commuter runs in the large metropolitan areas. None of that is likely to be resurrected.

The MM&A's Moosehead Sub, the EMR, and the NBSR provide a convenient rail link between Saint John and the rest of Canada. But even back when the CP was running the predecessor "Short Line," there was very little online freight business after the early '60s, and even before that it was rather sparse over the whole length of the line. The fact that Fredericton --- population 56,000 --- hasn't had a railroad since 1998, and doesn't need one, should tell you something.

[l008com]

Stoneham branch?
The Jello factory is huge and it would be an easy straight shot for them to have continued to get service. The line to their two spurs are fully intact, except for some parking lots.

The building that is at the end of Manison St in Stoneham, I wonder if their deal to purchase that land includes an easement for potential restoration of rail service through their parking lot?

[MaineCoonCat]

Candidates by category.
<stuff from original post removed>


MBTA-district commuter rail
Stoughton Branch, Stoughton-Taunton
Lexington Branch
Eastern Route, Newburyport-Hampton
Air Line, Franklin-Blackstone
Plymouth Line, Cordage Park-downtown Plymouth
M&L, Lawrence-state line (new abandonment for 2012)
B&P/Millis main, Needham Jct.-Medfield (new abandonment for 2012), Millis-Bellingham Jct.
Central Mass, Weston-Hudson/Berlin

After a trip to Boston down U.S. 20 through Sudbury, Wayland and Weston last week, I more than wholeheartedly agree with this!Jee-zus! That traffic is slower than [CENSORED].