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  • Premature abandoments(?)

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

 #1091081  by Sir Ray
 
rjones2 wrote:Since 1997, the Littleton, NH area has seen an increase in Box Stores- Lowes, Home Deport, Wal-Mart, etc. which could have all used rail for shipments. Now, the only way they could be reached is if something came via Whitefield, but I am unsure where the track ends in Littleton.
Remember, retail outlet box stores like Home Depot or Target cannot use direct rail service - instead, rail freight shipments (if any) would go to a regional distribution center to then be delivered to each local retail outlet by truck.
Also, this distribution center would recieve containers from overseas via truck, place the contents of those to the inventory and consequently deliver those goods by truck. I don't think the inventory control systems of big-box retailers would even allow for delivery by rail direct to the retail outlet (has anyone come up with any examples of regional or national retailers receving rail direct to their stores - construction material outlets don't count, I'm thinking Lowes or Wal*Mart level)...
 #1091146  by Ridgefielder
 
Here's another CT line that could have sustained commuter service if it had lasted a bit longer: Hartford-Pine Meadow via the Tariffville Gorge and Simsbury, the old Central New England main line. The line was abandoned west of Griffiths in the '30s (last passenger run was in 1925) because the freight customers in Simsbury, Collinsville and New Hartford were better served by the Canal Line and it's New Hartford branch. But today, with suburban Hartford having spilled over into the Farmington Valley, it would make decent sense as a commuter shuttle run-- especially since the drive over Talcott Mountain can be pretty hairy in bad weather. Too bad it didn't at least last into the railbank era.
 #1091171  by Noel Weaver
 
With regard to the last two posts on here:
Walmart does business with the railroad at least it does here in Florida. The Florida East Coast carries a considerable number of Walmart containers to Fort Pierce and some to Hialeah (Miami) as well.
As far as the old CNE being useful for commuter rail today, I kind of doubt it, it was 15 railroad miles from Hartford to Simsbury and the running time was anywhere from 35 to 55 minutes, the top speed on this line as well as many other lines of the period that did not have automatic block signals was 50 MPH for passenger trains but I just don't think this line offered the flexibility that other means of transportation do at least in so far as Hartford and its surrounding area is concerned.
Noel Weaver
 #1091462  by Ridgefielder
 
Noel Weaver wrote:As far as the old CNE being useful for commuter rail today, I kind of doubt it, it was 15 railroad miles from Hartford to Simsbury and the running time was anywhere from 35 to 55 minutes, the top speed on this line as well as many other lines of the period that did not have automatic block signals was 50 MPH for passenger trains but I just don't think this line offered the flexibility that other means of transportation do at least in so far as Hartford and its surrounding area is concerned.
Noel Weaver
Noel- the CT Transit Route 11 bus-- Simsbury/Granby Express-- takes 38 minutes to get from downtown Simsbury to Hartford. CT Transit Route 1, the Canton/Avon express, takes 51 minutes to get from Canton to Hartford via US 44. Can't argue with you as to flexibility, though.
 #1091774  by NRGeep
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
something linking Keene in both directions. (connection from Hillsborough Branch to Keene & NECR?...connection from Fitchburg main to Keene & NECR?)
Well, the Cheshire did the Fitchburg main from S Ashburnham to Keene as well as the NECR (then CV & B&M Conn River line) at "the Falls". Lil' g ripped out all the steel bridges on the line though left stone arches intact. Don't think there ever was a Hillsborough Branch connection to Keene unless there was some connection pre '38 on the Keene & Manchester Branch?
 #1091863  by jaymac
 
Per Robert Lindsell's The Rail Lines of Northern New England (Branch Line Press, 2000), 24+/- miles of the ex-Manchester & Keene line between Coolidge Crossing and Keene went and remained OOS after January 1934 flooding from thaws and rains, the 1938 hurricane causing official abandonment from Keene to Hancock in 1938 and the remainder west of Elmwood in 1939 (113-4). Prior to the early-1934 OOS east of Keene, a Peterborough Branch connection to Keene via Elmwood would have been at least a theoretical possibility, but that will require Official Guide confirmation or denial from someone -- unlike me -- who has access to the earlier years. Also from Lindsell on p. 116-7, the section between Peterborough and Elmwood was abandoned in 1942, having been OOS since the 1936 floods. The abandonment was probably at least partially enabled by the war-driven hunger for repurposeable steel.
On a side note, however active the Army Corps of Engineers may have been in post-1936 and post-1938 flood control projects, Irene of recent memory demonstrates that there are limits to human intervention, especially where there is challenging topography.
 #1092016  by ThinkNarrow
 
According to my September 1932 timetable, train 8219 left Boston at 7:35 am, arrived Nashua at 8:55 am, arrived Elwood at 10:24am (with a connection to Peterboro via train 8122 (Concord to Peterboro)), and Keene at 11:22 am. Train 8225 left Boston at 4:00 pm, arrived Nashua at 5:00 pm, arrived Elwood at 6:27 pm (no connection to Peterboro, as train 8124 from Concord had left Elmwood at 4:29 PM), and Keene at 7:20.

In the opposite direction, train 8218 left Keene at 6:20 am, arrived Elmwood at 7:15 (with a connection from Peterboro via train 8107 (Winchendon to Concord)) and arrived in Boston at 10:12 am. In the afternoon, train 8224 left Keene at 2:30 pm, arrived Elmwood at 3:32 (with a connection from Peterboro via train 8113 (Peterboro to Concord)) and arrived in Boston at 6:06 pm.

Driving from Nashua to Keene today would take 1 hr 20 minutes, compared to 2 hr 20 minutes by train back then. Only an hour's difference, but that's over 40% more time.
 #1092443  by b&m 1566
 
@ rjones2 - Track ends a mile or so west of the Littleton Station (Industrial Park Rd?).
 #1092501  by KEN PATRICK
 
consider the worcester to peterboro daily passenger train. 5 days, pulled by a 2-4-0 steamer. what a sight in winter. i rode it once on a rail-fan excusion. the crew turned the engine in peterboro on a hand-powered table. i guess it was a mail run because i never saw any freight on it. early 50's. did this train go anywhere else in nh before the floods? i thought concord might have been possible. ken patrick
 #1093178  by moxie13
 
One line that was abandoned to early was the MEC's Dover-Foxcroft branch. This line was a casualty of the 1986 strikes. In the last year of operation this branch hauled 2500 car loads. The primary business was to move pulp wood to paper mills. There was some other traffic, I grew up in Dexter, ME, and I can remember delivery to the local Agway. Once, I even saw a Conrail coal hopper on this local. This line was taken out of service far to early, and forced an increase in truck traffic. In this year, the MEC's Dover Foxcroft branch would have been abandoned years ago, it just happened to early.

Fans of the B&M's northern division need to get over it. I live in the Upper Valley, and am familiar with this line. On the map it does look like an important rail line. The historical truth is that it was not, at least in the latter decades. Check old B&M passenger timetables between Conocrd, NH and WRJ. The service was slow. There are many rail line lines that should have not been toned up such as the B&O in southeastern Ohio, or the EL western, but these mistakes cannot be changed.
 #1094483  by B&Mguy
 
Here are a few that come to my mind:

The Conway Branch between Ossipee and Conway. At the time it seemed like all business and industry along this section of the branch was going away for good, but 40 years later, it seems like there once again could be freight traffic on the line. In the 2007 NH Rail Trails Guide, the section discussing the Conway Branch states that it is not being formally converted into a trail because of "high potential for the return of rail service." I don't think this line will be resurrected right away, but I would not be surprised if within 20 years it's being used again. The Conway Scenic would likely benefit in having a more direct connection to the outside world too.

The Northern Line between Boscawen and Lebanon. While I agree with some of the above comments about how there was little business on this line at the end, I still think that this line should have been retained as a through route between Boston and Montreal. Sending freights all the way down the river and down the Fitchburg seems incredibly inefficient, and it seems like many miles could have been saved by using the Northern to it's full potential. Also, in the event of an accident or major disruption of service, having the Northern available would be huge. Also, even though the corridor would not be the best candidate for high speed conversion due to the curves and grades, it would still be a good option for passengers.

The Manchester-Portsmouth Branch between Manchester and Rockingham Junction. I think having a connection between the NH main line and the Western would be huge, even if it's only used for emergencies, or as needed. I don't see a line like this being used for passenger service, but as with the Northern, having it available for emergencies would be huge.

I'm not including the Eastern, because I think having service off of the Western from Rockingham Junction and connecting it to the Downeaster would be much more effective.

I may be wrong about this next one, but I think the Manchester and Lawrence Brach would have much more business available if it were to be reopened. Having two routes between Manchester and Boston would be a good thing, and with the large development of this region, it would seem a little foolish to not consider the benefits of rail service for freight and passengers.

While I don't think rail service all the way to Povincetown would be necessary, I think having it to a point on the Cape like Orleans would be avery benefical for tourism.
 #1094709  by TomNelligan
 
The Northern Line between Boscawen and Lebanon. While I agree with some of the above comments about how there was little business on this line at the end, I still think that this line should have been retained as a through route between Boston and Montreal. Sending freights all the way down the river and down the Fitchburg seems incredibly inefficient, and it seems like many miles could have been saved by using the Northern to it's full potential. Also, in the event of an accident or major disruption of service, having the Northern available would be huge. Also, even though the corridor would not be the best candidate for high speed conversion due to the curves and grades, it would still be a good option for passengers.
I'm old enough to have ridden the line back in the 1960s and photographed freights on it and I miss it too, but the factors you list weren't enough to support the cost of maintaining it when the pre-Guilford B&M was trying to cut expenses in the early 1980s and wouldn't be enough to pay to restore it today. There hasn't been any significant Montreal-Boston freight traffic since the 1970s, and when the B&M rerouted CP interchange traffic via East Deerfield it probably saved more on fuel running on the basically lat Conn River line than it lost on the slightly greater mileage. Today all that goes via CP's D&H line to interchange at Mohawk Yard in Schenectady, which is even longer but the CP wants to keep the traffic on home rails as long as possible. The Northern was famously used as a detour route after a Conn River derailment in the early 1980s, the last through trains on the line, but these days there is so little traffic on the Conn River (one NEC freight, one Amtrak train, irregular Pan Am operations) that maintaining a detour route for it is hardly justified. And as for passenger service, at the end there was just one daily round trip that consisted of one or two RDCs, and any restoration of Boston-Montreal passenger service these days will use the already passenger-quality B&A to Palmer and NEC north of there.
The Manchester-Portsmouth Branch between Manchester and Rockingham Junction. I think having a connection between the NH main line and the Western would be huge, even if it's only used for emergencies, or as needed. I don't see a line like this being used for passenger service, but as with the Northern, having it available for emergencies would be huge.
For what? There is hardly any freight business left in the Manchester/Concord area except for Bow coal, and a maintaining a detour route for a once-in-a-blue-moon Western Route blockage is hardly cost-justified.

In a world when even the Northeast Corridor has no viable detour routes, maintaining trackage as a contingency for what's left of rail freight business on the B&M these days isn't going to happen. As much as I hate to think about it, rail freight business in New England has dropped off so much since the 1960s and even more since the 1940s that a lot of fondly remembered lines simply no longer had a functional reason to exist.
 #1094917  by BowdoinStation
 
In terms of ManchVegas, there seems to be a lot of abandoned lines around town. I would think at least part of the M & L, and the line to Portsmouth would have been worth keeping to serve businesses that are near the former tracks like the oil companies near Maple Street and some industry along the M & L Line in Manchester.

The White Mountain line between Woodsville and Littleton may have been worth keeping. The 'condemned' railroad bridge sure worked well for regular vehicle traffic when the span was used when the US302 bridge was rebuilt in Woodsville 2004 / 2005 ish..

How about the rail line that branched off of the "Eastern" that went through Swampscott into Marblehead, and the line that went from Marblehead back to Salem. I am sure the Marblehead residents would appreciate an active commuter rail stop in town..
 #1094972  by B&Mguy
 
BowdoinStation wrote:How about the rail line that branched off of the "Eastern" that went through Swampscott into Marblehead, and the line that went from Marblehead back to Salem. I am sure the Marblehead residents would appreciate an active commuter rail stop in town..
Marblehead is very close to both Salem and Swampscott Stations on the Eastern. It seems like even back in the 1950's, these two branches were not getting many riders, thus making them prime targets for abandonment. There are two MBTA bus routes that run from Marblehead to Haymarket for those who want to commute without a car. Not as ideal as the train of course, but probably more cost effective for a town of it's size.
 #1095171  by BowdoinStation
 
I am well aware of the geography of Swampscott and Marblehead and who is to say your opinion is the end all and mine is not. This is purely a hypothetical thread, and these are my opinions. We are dealing with hypotheticals here since these lines are long gone anyway. Enjoy your bus ride into town.
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