The 636 Fleet

[ricebrianrice]

Any info about the OOS 636 fleet. Are they planning on bringing any of the rest back to life.

Thanks

[Otto Vondrak]

Any info about the OOS 636 fleet. Are they planning on bringing any of the rest back to life.

Thanks

I'm sure they are. Just need time, people, and money. And shop space.

[pablo]

Some of these have been rolling again.

The two freeze-damaged units will never run again.

This information has been repeated ad nauseum in many places.

Dave Becker

[Alcoman]

Some of these have been rolling again.

The two freeze-damaged units will never run again.

This information has been repeated ad nauseum in many places.

Dave Becker

Who is the source of that information? Is it "official" from the railroad or speculation on someones part. If the railroad plans to rebuild any of the X-GB&W C424's sitting in Lakeville, I bet the cost of rebuilding each one of those will be about the same as repairing the freeze damage on one C636.

I also suspect that a few years from now, the railroad will have a traffic increase that could require more 6 axle power. Since there are very few 6 axle Alcos left running in North America, it would be wise to keep these for future motive power requirements. Of course, all this could change if Cartier puts the rest of their fleet of M636 units up for sale.

[BR&P]

I also suspect that a few years from now, the railroad will have a traffic increase that could require more 6 axle power. Since there are very few 6 axle Alcos left running in North America, it would be wise to keep these for future motive power requirements. Of course, all this could change if Cartier puts the rest of their fleet of M636 units up for sale.

Another factor to consider is the current downturn in the economy. It's quite possible that at some point, running SD-40's or SD40-2's may become available for less than the cost of repairing the Alcos.

From a railfan or sentimental point of view, not what anyone wants to hear. From a business point of view, something to consider.

[Sandy Burton]

John,

The "source" is the man who owns the C636s. I know that might change if circumstances dictate that, but as right now there are no plans to restore them. I believe at least one is destined to go to a museum where it would be stuffed and mounted.

Sandy

[Alcoman]

Fair enough Sandy. I just hope that the donation to a Museum will be at least 3-5 years away. There is something in the works regarding a museum. Can't say more now as too early to give details.
John

[pablo]

Who is the source of that information? Is it "official" from the railroad or speculation on someones part. If the railroad plans to rebuild any of the X-GB&W C424's sitting in Lakeville, I bet the cost of rebuilding each one of those will be about the same as repairing the freeze damage on one C636.

John, you should understand by now that if I tell you something regarding locomotives on the WNYP, it's the truth. Let's start with the fact that the statement how the freeze damaged units would not be fixed has been out and about for some time, along with the explanation for this decision. Regarding the cost to repair these units, you are completely wrong. I get my information from one of the men who has been putting the 6 axles on the road again.

I also suspect that a few years from now, the railroad will have a traffic increase that could require more 6 axle power. Since there are very few 6 axle Alcos left running in North America, it would be wise to keep these for future motive power requirements. Of course, all this could change if Cartier puts the rest of their fleet of M636 units up for sale.

These units already have their fates decided, fates that include preservation. Let's move on to something else. Let's not re-open this a few months from now, shall we?

-edit, regarding the John's reply from after I wrote this: As I said John, listen when people speak. I mentioned preservation some time ago.

Dave Becker

[nessman]

It's quite possible that at some point, running SD-40's or SD40-2's may become available for less than the cost of repairing the Alcos.

From a railfan or sentimental point of view, not what anyone wants to hear. From a business point of view, something to consider.

Don hits the nail right on the head. Last I checked, the WNYP wasn't a rolling Alco museum.

[Alcoman]

It's quite possible that at some point, running SD-40's or SD40-2's may become available for less than the cost of repairing the Alcos.

From a railfan or sentimental point of view, not what anyone wants to hear. From a business point of view, something to consider.

Don hits the nail right on the head. Last I checked, the WNYP wasn't a rolling Alco museum.

It is doubtful that a SD40-2 or will be cheaper than repairing an Alco C636 anytime soon. The RTO SD40-2 is going for $200,000 to 300,000 each right now is good condition.
Any railroad that employs Alcos do so because it makes good business sense. Alcos are good economical fuel efficient 4 cycle machines that can lug the pants off of any EMD. Right now, you can buy 4-6 used Alcos for the price of one SD40-2. And yes;there will be a ALCO Museum someday.

[BR&P]

It's all speculation and you can plug in any numbers you want. Agreed, in today's market it would not happen. But if the economy continues to tank, those SD40-2's could some day be worth a small fraction of that. If the day comes you can get a decent SD for say $25,000 or $30,000, they would be a tempting option. That's not fantasy - in the late 80's decent running GP9's could be bought for under $10,000, sometimes well under.

On the other hand, the cost of repairing the dead-lined Alcos would not likely decline much. If the economy gets worse you might see a slight decline in the cost of the parts but it's doubtful the labor portion would be any less. And if the economy gets that bad, there might not be a demand for the big Alcos either.

Again, I wish and hope every last one of those big Alcos is returned to service and gives many years of work and railfan pleasure. But looking at it from a business perspective, you have to remember the big roads got rid of Alcos for a reason - dollars and cents. The same basics are there today. I'm happy the LA&L family is firmly committed to Alcos. But I guarantee that on occasion, those folks at least take a look at the "what if" alternatives - it would not be good business not to. Hopefully the answers keep coming up in favor of Alco. But there is no rock solid assurance that will be the case.

[kf7strng]

If I may i'd like to put my 2 cents in. It's just my opinion, but i think the alco fleet should be USED if they have been purchased. That being said, I understand the current economic downturn has hit us ALL hard.Now, if someone could back up my figures here, I believe somone posted that the WNYP are renting the HLCX units or something like $250\DAY. x 5 units (as far as I know) =$1250\day and x365= $456,250 in RENT alone. I'll take a moment to remind everyone that is the TOTAL rent for the 5 units for one year. I'll also point out, in WNYP\LAL's defense that even IF they had the money to repair the units they need, as has been said, shop space, time, and good replacement parts. And i concede that if you got rid of 5 WORKING units to fix 1 or 2 broken ones, that isn't a sound financial investment either.

Maybe if only 2 of the HLCX units were given back, it would free up some assets. And how about from an efficency standpoint? Do the HLCX units have a better tractive effort rating? and what about horsepower? Iwould appreciate if someone could assist me nd post some pros and cons of both. for instance, i know the EMDS are thirsty little buggers and drink ALOT more fuel than their Alco counterparts.

Mr.Becker, Otto, and Alcoman i know the 3 of you guys can give me some knowledge, I look forward to hearing your thoughts, anyone else feel free to deposit your own 2 cents also.

Andrew Jack

[pablo]

A lot of this has been done over and over again, but I might have some more to add based on nosing around other forums and from what I have heard.

I can't confirm or dent anything you've said, by the way, when it comes to cost, or when it comes to reasons for leasing.

I can say that I have read elsewhere that Helm has allowed Guilford/Pan-Am/ST to lease some units on incredibly attractive terms. The lease essentially allows the railroad to store the power and use it as needed. The storage cost offsets what it costs to use them. I have no specifics, nor do I expect any. This might explain why they've been sitting...and are still on the property.

I don't know what they are rated for, or if they are all working at their orignal horsepower. It would stand to reason that with multiple units, there are multiple ratings...or that they have been derated to 3000 HP, SD40-2 numbers.

Dave Becker

[nessman]

In some cases, it makes better sense from a business point of view to lease assets. It could be there are no capital funds to purchase big ticket items up front. It could be they don't want the hassles of ownership. It could be how the terms of moneys granted to the railroad dictate how they are expended. It could be an "inside deal" between principles of the railroad and the owners of the locomotives.

Unless you can put titles such as Chief Financial Officer, Budget Director, Treasurer, etc... after your name, alongside the name of any given railroad - I don't think we as railfans are qualified to dictate to the WNYP, et al, how they should acquire locomotives and how to pay for them.

That said... there is an abundance of 2nd generation 6-axle EMD and GE power out there... far far more than 6-axle Alco power. Sometimes a railroad can't wait months to fix that C636 sitting out back because of a lack of working capital, man power or expertise and they need to move cars ASAP.

This is one of the most frustrating part of the hobby is the complete disregard of the fact that a railroad is a BUSINESS.

[RS-3]

Err .. Nessman, no one here is "dictating" to anyone how to manage their locomotive fleets. We're simply indulging in harmless speculating. The railroad will do what it feels is in its best interest and that's how it should be. So far the railroad has done well with its Alcos. Only time will tell if its decides that it would be better served by switching to GEs or EMDs. Switching the whole roster would be costly at any cost, two parts invitories would be a pain, and I've doubts that maintaining 40 year old EMDs is any cheaper then maintaining 40 year old Alcos. Not to mention the time to switch would have been "before" the time and expense of putting the current fleet in service. But only time will tell.

RS