Railroad Forums 

  • WNY&P WANTS 6-8 six axle Alcos

  • Discussion pertaining to the past and present operations of the LAL, the WNYP, and the B&H. Official site: LALRR.COM.
Discussion pertaining to the past and present operations of the LAL, the WNYP, and the B&H. Official site: LALRR.COM.

Moderator: Luther Brefo

 #392881  by railwatcher
 
The old thread for the Cartier (NYSW) "Things" is here. You might consider this good reading to understand where they went and ownerships questions are clarified. Hope it brings those interested up to speed. And if you want to know about them in their current state, check the NYSW forum.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 06&start=0

Greg

 #392903  by RS-3
 
"I'm not sure the WNYP actually owned the 636s. As I recall it, SIXX owned th e locomotives."

As I inderstand it this is true. What I meant was WNY&P had "first dibs" on them. That WNY&P was (probably) the whole point in bringing them here in the first place.

RS

 #392963  by scottychaos
 
Correct..none of the units were ever officially owned by WNYP/LAL.
they were only stored by the LAL/B&H in Cohocton.
rumours were floating about for years that all or some of the units might end up on the LAL/WNYP, but it never happened.

Today, only C363 #77 remaines with SIXX.
the other seven are all NYSW.

there are 8 Cartier units total in the Cohocton/LAL/NYSW Cartier unit saga.
Two C636 and Six M636.

http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/NY-Alcos/

http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychao ... dates.html

(I need to update the timeline for 2007)

Scot

 #393007  by Mike Walsh
 
I apologize to be the odd man out, but why are we discussing what is best for the Livonia, Avon, and Lakeville Family, when our opinions make very little difference?

I think we should just wait to see what decision LA&L makes, rather than waste time speculating about what they might do. I am sure that if they have a need for these units, they will find them. They know where to look, and if they come up empty, so be it...

Just my 2 cents...

 #393019  by Otto Vondrak
 
Amen, brother. It's interesting talk, but our talk isn't going to answer the question. We'll just have to wait and see.

-otto-

 #393065  by RS-3
 
I don't recall anyone saying "what's best" for the LA&L. And I agree our opinions matter not. I don’t think anyone one here labors under the impression they might. Still, I fail to see the harm in some friendly, curious idle speculation or in any attempts to learn what's going on. For a railfan perspective its an extremely interesting development. If we limit this forum's discussion to strictly reporting the facts after they happen I'd guess 98% of the "discussion" (which really won't be discussion if its limited to the facts) will be gone. Some of us are just trying to keep abreast of the happenings.

As to answering our questions, I disagree. I've already had several questions answered and learned a lot. As to time wasted, well if we wish to "waste" our time, why not? It is after all my time to waste. (I'm curious how you decide what is a "waste" of MY time.) If you consider it time wasted, don't waste your time discussing it. Me, I was under the impression it was a “discussion forum”. Given there are 49 post on this topic apparently someone else also finds it interesting and worthy of “discussion”. For me, “speculation” is half the fun of the hobby. (I wish I had the money to do more than speculate, but alas that is all I can do.) Then again maybe that too will become forbidden. Maybe we shouldn't "speculate" who will win the the MLB playoffs or World Series or if Yankees will trade for another pitcher, or if Tiger Woods can do it again.

Anticipation. Speculation. Curiosity. Where’s the harm? Standard railfan practice to me. Part of human nature if you ask me (not that you did).

RS

 #393081  by railwatcher
 
Speculation is acceptable when it is written and understood to be just that, speculation. When speculation is reported as fact, then there is a problem.

Now on with the discussion........wasn't it about WNYP wanting to get six to eight 6 axle ALCos?

Carry on......................!

I guess one or two questions comes to my mind about six axle ALCos, and that is how many are left that are operable, other than the NYSW's fleet? How many more are does the Cartier system have on their lines, and are they available?

Now that the LAL family has bought another C425 from M&E does that take away from the six axle quota, even though its a four axle unit?

When is it decided that there are no more ALCo's fit for purchase (not meant as a bash, but as a real question)?

Greg

 #393130  by RS-3
 
Totally agree re "speculation" being reported as fact. I'm not award of too much re this discussion that wasn't clearly speculation. However in that vein, I should point out that (as I understand it) the M&E C-425 (and the two ex-CP C-424s also coming) are NOT purchased, but leased (one year). "My "speculation" is they could stay longer depending on how events unfold, but that is just speculation on my part. (The lease info is from a reliable source.)

As for more Alcos, there still Alcos to be had .. for a price. (Ohio Central has two or three for sale. Minn Commercial also has some, other places its one or two here or there.) Alas mostly 4-axle. Aside from the NYSW fleet, the only other 6-axles of that number are Cartier's. I've no idea if they are ready to part with them yet, nor will I speculate on that:-) (They were recently rebuilt when the others were retired, and I *think*, without looking it up, they have 8 left.)

RS

 #393148  by oibu
 
Yes, Cartier does have the rebuilt units (IIRC there are 5-6 of them) as well as, I believe, two unrebuitl ones (though they may have long been parted out by now, not sure). Even the rebuilds seem to be largely egtting phased out on the QCM though, even from the work train and log train assignments. So, some or all of them may be or may become available, especially if "the price is right".

MNNR still has the Cat-engined M636, not sure if LAL/WNYP would want this. M&E has already parted out the CBNS 2029, so scratch that idea. WYNP/LAL does have CP 4573, so there is "one" of the 6-8. Also, does the ex A&M 70 currently on WNYP count as amongst those? If so, then we may only eb talking about WNYP looking for "4-6 ADDITIONAL" 6 motor Alcos. ALL 8 units that NYS&W has on their property are "fixable" by anyone with an interest and desire to do so and enouh of a commitment to Alco power to do so. (WNYP/LAL has these) However, NYS&W is doing electrical upgrades, I believe one is done and 2 are in the works right now. SOO- NYS&W may have (FINALLY) also committed themseleves to these units. However, again "for the right price" I'm sure WNYP/LAL and/or SIXX/636 Leasing could buy them back. OR perhaps NYS&W would keep the ones they've got running and dump the others back to WNYP/LAL.

Other than the NYS&W units, the Cartier's remaining units, the IBCX ex CN/CBNS 2028 (which is probably parted out beyond economical repair even for an Alco stronghold... but never say never), the MNNR CAT M636, and DL's units, that's about all the options there are as far as sources of 6 motor Alco/MLws (oh, and the NRE HR616s... but that's also a real long shot).

As for my comment above about WNYP/LAL having "had" the 8 636s, and the nsuing discussion re: ownership thereof, "SIXX" and "636 Leasing" consist of LAL and M&E officials. SO while "on paper they" were never WNYPs or LALs or M&Es....

 #393171  by RS-3
 
Excellent summary Oibu. You nailed it.

I would be surprised (speculating here) to see the NYSW "fleet" split up. I’d speculate they would stay together on the NYSW or all go to the WNYP.

Interesting that the CBCNS 2029 was finally cut up just as WNYP is looking for 6-axle Alcos! (As I understand it the 2028 wasn't in as good condition but as you say, if the money and desire are there.....)

RS

 #393288  by PVRX1
 
The ALCO C425 on the Seminole Gulf Railroad is also for sale @ $90,000.00.

The C425 #4264 is coming to ya'll.

The 4223 and 4228 (M&E C424s) I have not heard anything about. 4223 is in Morristown and 4228 is in Maine.

 #393304  by N_DL640A
 
scottychaos wrote:
Today, only C363 #77 remaines with SIXX.
the other seven are all NYSW.


Scot
The 77 is owned by NYSW, and it is actually the 3662 on paper. It was already frozen when the lease turned into purchase for the engines, so it was never stenciled "NYSW 3662".
 #393537  by thebigham
 
Buffalo Southern has a MLW C424 #4212 that is in storage.

 #393580  by scottychaos
 
N_DL640A wrote:
scottychaos wrote:
Today, only C363 #77 remaines with SIXX.
the other seven are all NYSW.


Scot
The 77 is owned by NYSW, and it is actually the 3662 on paper. It was already frozen when the lease turned into purchase for the engines, so it was never stenciled "NYSW 3662".
thanks! :P
I never knew it was actually owned by NYSW..
I will update the NY Alcos page to reflect that.

Scot

 #399274  by railwatcher
 
Scot, do you have a list of the "live" six axle ALCos out there that are worth the investment?

Greg