Livonia, Avon and Lakeville Coaches from Yester-decades

[Luther Brefo]

Hi all,

I recently stumbled upon a few images of so of the more unknown LA&L equipment that is no longer seen today, or was destoryed long long ago. But with all that I am finding now, I was wondering if anyone had any more information as to what type of coaches the LA&L used for their passenger excursions way back. From what I can see, they are corrugated...That's about all I can tell.

I do know that for a while, there was one or more Amtrak Streamline Coaches stored on the ONCT but that is most likely gone by now and it does not match the photos. Does anyone know?

[scottychaos]

I know the LAL still has a heavyweight coach, the "Traveler", on the roster..
I have seens pictures of it, but never manage to catch it in person!
anyone know where it is kept? is it inside the Lakeville enginehouse??

Scot

[railwatcher]

Luther is there any chance of you posting those pictures?

Greg

[Sandy Burton]

The "Traveller" came from the A&M and was not part of the early excursion service. It was the A&M's business car before coming to the LAL.

[Luther Brefo]

The "Traveller" came from the A&M and was not part of the early excursion service. It was the A&M's business car before coming to the LAL.

Sandy, can you describe the Traveller coach?

[Luther Brefo]

Luther is there any chance of you posting those pictures?

Greg

Sure...I've just got to get my own computer sometime soon. I'm on a friend's machine at the moment.

[scottychaos]

Here is a shot of "Traveler"
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/lal-b101ast.jpg
"Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR Office Car #101 at East Salamanca, NY 10-05-01 on B&P RR. - {Steve Timko Photo}"

and here is a shot of some of the 1970's coaches!
and this one says simply "Coach - Sep/72 - {Bob Sypher Photo}"
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/lvl-coa-bs.jpg

both pics from:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/misc-l.html

Scot

[Sandy Burton]

Luther, as you can see from the picture that Scotty posted, the Traveller is a heavy-weight observation car or business car. It appears that the only change in the exterior appearance from its time on the Arkansas & Missouri is the railroad name.

Sandy

[Luther Brefo]

Here is a shot of "Traveler"
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/lal-b101ast.jpg
"Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR Office Car #101 at East Salamanca, NY 10-05-01 on B&P RR. - {Steve Timko Photo}"

and here is a shot of some of the 1970's coaches!
and this one says simply "Coach - Sep/72 - {Bob Sypher Photo}"
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/lvl-coa-bs.jpg

both pics from:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/misc-l.html

Scot

Those were the same pictures I was going to post. Hehe.

[Luther Brefo]

Luther, as you can see from the picture that Scotty posted, the Traveller is a heavy-weight observation car or business car. It appears that the only change in the exterior appearance from its time on the Arkansas & Missouri is the railroad name.

Sandy

Thanks Sandy...

This information will certainly make it easier to model this equipment

[Luther Brefo]

Thanks to Sandy, at least the one of the cars has been identified. But I am still having a hard time figuring out exactly what kind of car the coaches were.

Also in the picture below, it looks like that is number 38 at the head end.

They are pictured here in this image.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-l/lvl-coa-bs.jpg



but I cannot tell. From what I have been told, they are Budd-Corrugated but I cannot find a match for it anywhere.

[Otto Vondrak]

The traveller was originally on the Canadian National. I toured the car right after it was delivered to LAL in 1997/1998, sometime in there. The car still has "CN" patterned carpet! I believe the car was originally built as a wood-bodied car and was later rebuilt as steel. I'm not sure how many owners it passed to before it came to the Arkansas & Missouri, and then the LAL.

To model this car, you could start with any type of heavyweight Pullman obs. You'd have to work against some photos to match details exactly.

To model the Budd coaches, you could use any generally accepted model of a Budd coach to start with.
The Walther's 46-seat Budd coach: http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6300

The Walthers's 52-seat Budd coach:
http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6380

IIRC, weren't some of the LAL coaches purchased second-hand from the Erie Lackawanna? I thought I remembered seeing pictures of modernized ex-Erie Stillwell coaches. F&C makes a resin kit for this body style: http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/279-203

The Amtrak coaches that were stored on the ONCT at Victor are privately owned, and have been sold off over the years. They were never on the ONCT or LAL roster. Many years ago ONCT offered a short train ride in conjunction with a local restaurant using retired commuter coaches, but they went off-line years ago.

Hope this helps.

-otto-

[VTM]

Refer herewith to my previous post in the NYS forum some time back.....

LAL had 2 groups of Stillwell coaches.

First Group was comprised of ERIE 2619 and 2508 which were purchased by LAL representatives in 1964 directly off the commuter ready track at Suffern, NY. EL personnel basically told LAL..there they are...take your pick! Cars were in good overall condition and were part of the regular consist throughout the life of excursion operations.

Second group was purchased circa 1971 and consisted of ERIE 2171 and 2192. These cars were in the early group of cars produced for the Erie which had arch windows and fabricated open sideframe trucks much akin to an archbar design albeit with oil roller bearings. This series I am told were designed to allow installation of traction motors if and when Erie ever electrified the NJ commuter district. Cars were in bad interior condition when purchased and were used only as absolutely necessary as overload cars. Far as I recall they came off the dead track at Hornell. 2171 was painted and 2192 remained in its Erie paint upon disposition.

LAL 2508 and 2619 were sold to the Gettysburg Railroad along with a former DL&W Boonton combine (original DL&W # unknown, eventually numbered 2501 by LAL), and NYC day coach (2511), and NYC Empire State cars 2952 and 2652.

2171 was sold to a private individual in Honeoye Falls as an adjunct to his LV station and was moved there by Conrail. Car was eventualy scrapped at that location after several years....Car ultimetely returned to Livonia albeit in pieces as it was scrapped on site in Honeoye Falls by Fugles' of South Livonia and parts could be seen in their scrap yard during the mid 1980s'
2192 migrated to the Loose Caboose restaurant complexadjacent to the OMID at Webster....(disposition??)

2508 and 2619 were offered by sale via Barnhart and Associates about 1998 and darn near came back to the LAL as a compliment to Office Car 100. Negotiations faltered and I believe cars may be in the Carolinas somewhere today....could be wrong.

Hope this helps.

[nydepot]

And if you try to model the LA&L Stillwell coaches, watch the window count. Most models available, including the NWSL brass ones, represent the version that is one window short of the ones on the LA&L. Something like 72' instead of 76'.

Charles

[erievalley]

For those of you interested, here is a condensed history of #100:

Built circa 1884 (wooden construction) as Bangor & Aroostock Railway offical car #200.
Acquired 1913 by the Intercolonial Railway--named Winnipeg
Renumbered Canadian Government Railways #30 in May 1918.
Renumbered Canadian National Railways #102 (Jan 1921), #85 (Oct 1922), and #65 (Apr 1924).
CNR Class PV-68/PV-69, rebuilt Nov.1929-May 1930 with steel fish belly underframe(truss rods), steel sheathing and new interior.
Modernized by CNR in 1963.
Retired by CNR Feb.1976, and sold to Robert Bennatts of Peck MI.
Acquired 1988 by the A&M RR, renumbered #100, named Traveller.
Acquired May 1998 by the LA&L RR.

Discovered this info in my files while doing a little research.....Jerry.