UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

The best bet at this point is to wait for the NTSB report,I sense where this is going,but it would be better to wait for the report.
The report should be avaible about 07/06/2012(10 days)

This is so sad...My condolences go out to their families & friends. Will keep them all in my prayers this week.

My condolences to the families and friends of the crew.

Here is an update posted in the Kansas City Star earlier today:

Ken Miller, a writer for the Associated Press, wrote:Experts speculate human error in Okla. train crash

Experts speculated Tuesday that a fiery head-on collision of two trains in the Oklahoma Panhandle was likely the result of human error, though federal investigators are still piecing together evidence and haven't determined a cause.

Three crew members were killed when the Union Pacific trains slammed into each other Sunday morning just east of Goodwell, about 300 miles northwest of Oklahoma City. The crash triggered a diesel-fueled fireball that appeared to weld the locomotives together...

The only other rail worker on the trains at the time of the crash managed to jump free before the collision and suffered only cuts and bruises.

The National Transportation Safety Board said it appears signals were working properly at the time of the wreck, and that one of the trains passing through the flat landscape should have pulled onto a side track. The NTSB said there was "no survivable space" in the locomotives' cabins following the collision.

The NTSB could release a preliminary report within two weeks, though it could be a year before a final report is available, NTSB official Mark Rosekind said...

Bob Jarvis...noted that human error can go beyond the train crew.

"In those kinds of accidents you really start to think about who let these two trains leave the yard. Who was monitoring? That's likely going to be human error back where the pretty lights (of a communications center) are," Jarvis said. "Was there a technical failure in the control room or was somebody not watching?"

"But something can happen with the signals, too," added Carmichael...

"The signal system is not foolproof," said retired Burlington Northern-Santa Fe train engineer John Hiatt...

NTSB investigators said they were still gathering data to figure out what happened, including why one of the trains failed to pull onto a side track as the other train approached on the main line...

An early review found no problems with the signal system along the tracks near Goodwell and the track appeared normal, said Rosekind, the NTSB official...

The eastbound train, hauling mixed goods from Los Angeles to Chicago, had three lead locomotives and one following. The westbound, taking cars and trucks from Kansas City to Los Angeles, was pulled by two locomotives and pushed by one.

Video was recovered from the rear locomotives, and the remnants of what is believed to be one of the so-called black box data recorders has been pulled from one train.

"Those are critical to our investigations. We can ... virtually see what happened," Rosekind said in a telephone interview from Guymon.

Rosekind said the trains' brakes appeared normal...

See the full story here: Experts speculate human error in Okla. train crash

The complete and utter ignorance to both the mechanics and fundamentals of rail operations demonstrated thus far by the public & media in these embarrassingly stupid National News Reports does not bode well for anyone in this industry, nor the country in general.

Any one of these appalling clown reporters could have ventured down the street to the nearest tavern and found greater situational enlightenment than some idiot jack*ss truck driver who apparently witnessed the disaster but "didn't stop", just kept on a goin'... Wonderin' why them trainz wasn't flashin' their lights & a blowin' the train whistle.

Hello NTSB, trains don't just steer themselves onto sidings. Especially not in CTC land... So what happened Omaha?

My condolences as well to the families... This could have been any of us.

My condolences as well to the families of all who were lost and injured in this accident.

A properly functioning CTC system would not have routed these trains into each other.
The train crew that was supposed to take siding for the other one should have been aware of that fact. When they approached the siding they were supposed to take, and found they were instead lined for the main, they needed to take immediate action: stop short of the switch and contact DS and the opposing train. The DS could then have lined the switch for them, or they could then have done so manually and cleared.

Someone would have likely gotten an ass-chewing, but that sure beats funerals.

The blame will be placed on someone, we all know that much. I hope the investigation goes beyond fixing blame, and actually finds out what happened so it doesn't happen again.

I've operated trains on both CTC and its variant with cab signals. It is a very safe system, in my opinion. Safer than TWC or Train Orders. Safer because there is another set of eyes involved in the form of the dispatcher, safer because signals are spaced according to track speed, safer because routes are pre-set, and controlled so that trains cannot be set up to crash into each other. I've always felt safer running in CTC even though speeds were high.

Even if the system malfunctioned, the humans involved should have been aware of that. I hope there is an investigation of the hours in service and hours of rest for each of the train crew members and dispatchers involved. Also, if rest times were regular or irregular leading up to the wreck. There were three sets of humans involved with this collision: two train crews and the dispatcher(s). Any one of the three could have prevented this, if they were aware of what was happening.

Les

Regardless of what happened, this is really horrible. My prayers go out to the crew members and their families and friends.

Reading that no problems was found with the signalling system means either there was a problem that was not found (yet) or one of the crews missed something very important.

It is pleasing to see that members around here who actually "do or done this stuff for a living" have chosen to participate at the discussion.

It is also surprising that the Associated Press, an institution that has done insightful railroad related reporting in the past, chose to assign this story to a "Cub"; I have to concur to some extent with Mr. Third Trick's evaluation of the reportage.

Even if the NTSB releases a "Preliminary" within the next two weeks, that is hardly a conclusive document. Such will likely confirm whether or not the train control system was "working" and it may address toxicology issues appertaining the deceased employees. But on an issue that could be considered criminal, namely a willful override of the train control system, that will have to simply have to wait for the full report.

Finally, what I believe will be of great impact to the industry (and of course the shippers who will pay the bill - before passing same on to consumers of anything that has involved railroad transportation in its production or distribution) is to what extent will this incident affect the ongoing debate regarding implementation of Positive Train Control as mandated by RSIA 08.

Desertdweller wrote: I've operated trains on both CTC and its variant with cab signals. It is a very safe system, in my opinion. Safer than TWC or Train Orders. Safer because there is another set of eyes involved in the form of the dispatcher, safer because signals are spaced according to track speed, safer because routes are pre-set, and controlled so that trains cannot be set up to crash into each other. I've always felt safer running in CTC even though speeds were high.

I've read in a couple of places that the Pratt Sub may have been CTC WITH TWC. I know basically nothing about that type of operation (NS has Rule 271 territory, but nowhere near where I operate)....just wondering if anyone who knows the territory in question can verify if thats true, and what effect it may have had on the incident.....

The Pratt Subdivision is 100 percent CTC, the meet was supposed to take place at Goodwell Siding. The Westbound Autorack train was to take the siding. The Eastbound Container train was to stay on the main. The Westbound Autorack traincrew saw the Yellow over Yellow (Advance Approach) at the Distant Signal for the ESS (East Siding Switch) at Goodwell Siding and had reduced their speed to enter the siding. The Eastbound Container train did not stop on the main at ESS Goodwell. The collision happened on the single main track between Goodwell Siding and Optima Siding. The Engineer of the Westbound Autorack train also jumped, but was killed. The Westbound Autorack train had a meet with another Eastbound at Optima Siding and was in the Siding for that meet. The Video and Data Recorders from the DPU locomotives have been recovered, the Data Loggers from the Signal Bungalows have been recovered. In addition the Data Recorder from one of the headend locomotives has been recovered, but is badly damaged. The bodies of the three deceased crewmembers have been recovered. Those are the known general facts, the devil is in the details. The Truck Driver said the Eastbound was traveling at 68 mph which is plausible. The Data Recorders from the DPU locomotives will give the NTSB the correct speeds

Do UP locomotives have ditch lights that flash when the whistle blows or the emergency brake is applied? Someone like a long haul trucker who paces trains might know the answer to half of that question, and Google Earth shows grade crossings NorthEast of Goodwell, Okla.
Are the dispatchers for the Golden State Route in the habit of talking to train crews about what is going to happen, like meets and who takes the siding for them, or do they rely on the signal system to pass the news?
Is there any pattern or rule in that territory about which train takes the siding for a meet? Are passing siding switches equilateral, so that it doesn't matter?
Is there any report on the type and condition of the East Siding Switch at Goodwell, Okla.?

JayBee,

I'm having trouble reconstructing this in my mind. You seem to have the most information about what happened.

The Westbound Autorack was supposed to take siding at ESS Goodwell. At the Distant Signal they were given an Advance Approach and slowed to enter the siding. So far, so good. The Eastbound Container Train did not stop on the main at ESS Goodwell. That alone might not mean anything, depending on how close he was to ESS Goodwell. If he was within four signal blocks of ESS Goodwell, he should not have had a proceed (green) signal until the Westbound was in the siding at ESS Goodwell and the switch restored for through movement on the main. Of course, if that had happened, there would have been no collision.

You then state the collision happened on the main between Goodwell and Optima Siding. This would seem to me to be a head-on collision. Thus eliminating the circumstance that the Eastbound ran into the Westbound's train before he had fully cleared the main at ESS Goodwell. So, you say that the Westbound did not enter the siding at Goodwell? Or do you mean that the Westbound cleared the main at ESS Goodwell and re-entered the main at WSS Goodwell? If that is what happened, a properly functioning CTC system would not allow that.

Then you said that the Westbound Train had a meet with another Eastbound at Optima Siding. Is Optima Siding East or West of Goodwell Siding? Are you saying that the Westbound had gotten in the clear at Optima Siding, had a successful meet with an Eastbound, then pulled out to get smacked by a second Eastbound? How would he have gotten a clear signal coming out of WSS Optima with another train running into his face? More importantly, with CTC-controlled sidings, how could he have even been lined back onto the main in the face of an oncoming train?

Even if there was a massive failure of the CTC system, there were still two train crews and one or more dispatchers supposed to be watching what was going on. If the Westbound got the Advance Approach signal approaching ESS Goodwell, what did they see when they got to the switch? Was the switch lined for the siding? Did they get a clear or Lunar White aspect to enter the siding? If not, that should have told them something was seriously wrong.
Why would the Eastbound be sailing along at 68mph in the face of an oncoming train on straight track? Did they get a clear signal despite the oncoming Westbound?
Again, if they did, something had to be wrong with the signal system. But could they not see what was happening?
And why were the trains crews not in radio communication with each other? Or were they, but maybe it was by then too late?
And what was the dispatcher doing while all this was happening?

Catastrophic train accidents almost never can be attributed to one sole cause. The more serious the accident, the greater the chances it was the result of more than one factor. If there was a problem with the CTC (and in this case I strongly suspect that there was), it is still the responsibility of the humans involved to realize that and try to avoid as much damage as possible. It is most important for the train crews, they are the ones who are most apt to lose their lives. It is a grave responsibility for the dispatchers, too, to have so many lives in their hands.

Les

News accounts say that the head on collision was just East of Goodwell, Okla, and maps show that Optima, Okla. is NorthEast of there.
Does the signal system have a Direction of Traffic feature between sidings? Or, will it allow opposing trains leaving adjacent sidings to both get clear signals if there are sufficient signal blocks between them?

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data."
-- Sherlock Holmes, quoted by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, writing as John H. Watson, M. D.
(A Scandal in Bohemia, actually.)
Presumably when there's a preliminary report from the NTSB a lot of the above questions will be answered, and maybe a diagram will appear at some point.

Desertdweller wrote:JayBee,
Catastrophic train accidents almost never can be attributed to one sole cause. The more serious the accident, the greater the chances it was the result of more than one factor. Les

That is sure often the case. And with respect to the comments that they tested the signal system and it is OK, so it must have been human error, that one always drives me nuts. Signal systems (and almost all electronic systems) sometimes have funny glitches which are tough to reproduce. In the Washington Metro crash in 2009, there was some wierd oscillation in a train detector circuit that wasn't at all supposed to happen, or wasn't even recognized that it could happen, and it was OK for many many years, but then it did go wacky and people were killed. The 2nd failure in that case was that management knew the circuit was wacky for a few days and causing trouble, so apparently they had operators turn off the train detection for that section of track (sorry for not being correct technically), and then an operator (or whatever you call the person in the cab in a "fully automated" system) didn't get notice of a stopped train just ahead of her, or more correctly the central control system didn't get notice of the stopped train, and she (and others) died in the collision. http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 75&t=62770 JS