Typical NYC passenger consist hauled by Alco PA?

Yesterday, I purchased a beautiful "N-Scale" NYC passenger train consist with an ALCO PA-1 and PA-2 followed by six cars: two RPO's, with six passenger cars following, all in the two-tone grey paint scheme, the end car is a "Creek" series rounded end observation car......Would this consist be typical of any of the New York Central's many passenger trains in the 1950's or 60's?.....The ALCO Pa's are one of my favorite locomotives of all time, but I seem to only recall seeing photos of EMD "E" units on their passenger trains of the era.....Could anyone shed any light on this?
(The purchase hit a "heart note" with me, as my first passenger train ride was on the New York Central in 1964...a round-trip from Erie, Pa to Ashtabula, Ohio......I was hooked for life then and there......Nothing like a passenger train on the New York Central!)



Thanks,




XC Tower

I have not scene the set you have. The NYC much preferred EMD E7 and E8s on it's best trains. The
Hickory Creek and Sandy Creek were only used on the 20th Century Limited.

WhatExNYC63 said is all correct. As an N scale modeler I can add the following.
You did no identify the set you have, but it is likely either a Con-Cor or Kato product.
In either case, the observation car is based on a River-series car not the Creek-series car which had tall windows in the observation lounge area.
The River-series cars did see service on the Century for a short time during World War II after which they were assigned in pool service.
The other cars are not NYC prototypes but are nice stand-ins for the cars they represent.
While not common on the Century, Alco PAs did appear on other name trains like the New England States.
Overall, your set is a nice representation of a classic NYC passenger train. Enjoy it for the memories it evokes.
Mike

XC Tower wrote:Yesterday, I purchased a beautiful "N-Scale" NYC passenger train consist with an ALCO PA-1 and PA-2 followed by six cars: two RPO's, with six passenger cars following, all in the two-tone grey paint scheme, the end car is a "Creek" series rounded end observation car......Would this consist be typical of any of the New York Central's many passenger trains in the 1950's or 60's?

"Typical" for where? Lines East? Lines West? Big Four? Boston & Albany? The question I'm asking is, what train service are you trying to model?

If you enjoy the sight of a matched set of two-tone gray cars hauled by PAs, then that's really all that matters.

-otto-

There are a couple of reasons that the E-units show up more, in photographs.
- There were over 100 E7 and E8 units on the NYC, counting B units, and only a handful of PAs and PBs.
- The Alcos were considered far less reliable on the NYC than the equivalent EMD product
- As a result, the Alcos were among the first NYC passenger diesels to be retired (first ones were gone in late 1960), while the E7s and E8s continued on through to the PC merger.

Due to their reputation as poor performers, you could say (with a wink), that they would be appropriate for any train that's not moving.

JR

JR is correct, the NYCRR had 110 E7 & E8 units (36 E7A, 14 E7B and 60 E8A) compared to 20 PA1/PA2 units (8 PA1, 4 PB1, 7 PA2 and 1 PB2). So the chances of a NYCRR passenger train being headed up by a E7/E8 while being photographed is about 5.5 times higher than being headed up by a PA. Some of the PA2's were lettered for the P&LE, not the NYCRR proper and only ran on the P&LE.

The NYCRR also had some real "oddball" passenger diesel power; 6 FM "Erie Built" units with 6 axles, 8 FM "C-Liners" with 5 axles (most powerful diesel locos on the system at the time, 2400 HP, when operating, wink wink), 6 EMD F3's (geared for passenger train speeds and painted in "passenger" two tone gray paint for the B&A) and a couple of Baldwin "Gravel Gerties" (very ugly, in my opinion).

The NYCRR did try out these locos all over the system in the beginning, then later tried to keep the ALCO stuff on "Lines East" and maintain them in Dewitt to make parts supplies easier to manage. I'm sure every low ranked roundhouse foreman on the system tried to get the FM's and Baldwin's the heck out of his territory ASAP.

Once the passenger train business started to "fall off" (like Thelma and Louise and that cliff), the natural thing to do was to scrap/trade in all the oddball stuff and concentrate on keeping the "majority" stuff running. Easier to keep repair parts in stock and more standard operating procedures, etc. etc.

By the very late 1950's nearly all the "Not EMD" stuff was gone or stored, as where most of the round end observation cars. The Century was the only train that kept a round end observation car until the end.

Cheers, Kevin.

Re NYCRRson's comment:
It probably made sense for a railroad the size of the NewYork Centralto concentrate units from different builders in different geographical areas. (There was an article in "Trains," years back, about the New York Central, the Erie-Lackawanna, and the B&O in the 1960s all concentrating their Baldwins and Limas in the Cincinnati area-- where the mechanical people of the three railroads could commiserate with each other and maybe trade spare parts!) It does SEEM to me that many of the photos I have seen showing NYCRR Alco PA (and FM "Erie-built") units on trains were taken on the Boston & Albany: it was the first division of the Central dieselized, and so would have seen some of the very early units(*), and ***PERHAPS*** its hilly profile attracted locomotives with robust GE traction motors. … Note also that NYC1956 mentions the "New England States" as a likely train for PA haulage.

(*) The NYC System's PA-2 units were P&LE, so only the PA-1 units would be likely to be seen elsewhere: these were contemporaries of the E-7 units. The approximately half of the NYCRR's passenger units that were E-8 were therefore all newer than the PA units likely to be seen other than between Pittsburgh and Cleveland!

Since Allen mentioned PA-2, let me go back to XC Tower's original post where he mentioned PA-1 and PA-2 I suspect he meant PB-1 (cabless locomotive) not PA-2. I don't think there has been a PA-2 made in N scale.
For that matter, no N scale Creek-series observation has been made either.
In N scale, beggars can't be choosers. Build it yourself or live with stand-ins.

I think at least early on - until they had shown themselves to be less reliable than the E-units - PAs could be found on many of the top-end NYC passenger trains.

Tempting to say for a 1950's NYC passenger train that the most unrealistic part of the train described is all the cars being in the same paint scheme...by the mid-fifties I think most NYC trains had a mix of two-tone gray and stainless steel, with a Pullman Green heavyweight or two thrown in for good measure.

To answer these points better I recommend all to try to find an old copy of "The Official Guide". It was the passenger agent's "Bible" back when. I have been re-reading my collection (large) of soft cover books and dug out a copy of the "Guide" from 1949 to further answer and research this stuff. The New York Central alone had more sleeping car lines and cars in operation at that time than probably all of Amtrak has today and this was just the New York Central. Some of the trains and car lines of the period would boggle your mind today. you can often determine the consists of various trains just from looking at the equipment lists in these old guides of the period. Not just the main lines had equipment listings either; there were sleepers in the Adirondacks, dining and lounge cars on the Harlem to Chatham and a lot more. Incidentally the only place where the New York Central and the New Haven competed for passengers was between New York and Pittsfield; the NYC via Chatham and the New Haven via Danbury. Both companies offered dining cars and lounge cars and had similar running times. Lots of interesting reading and it will keep you up nights. Copies will not come cheap but the information is priceless.
Noel Weaver