Railroad Forums 

  • train safety system on american trains ??

  • General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment
General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment

Moderator: John_Perkowski

 #248265  by jg greenwood
 
DutchRailnut wrote:Hmm Am I mistaken in that this site is for railfans ??
Duhh I must be wrong again.
A railfan site for FACTUAL information. In your case, misinformation often disseminated with a complete lack of facticity!

 #248270  by DutchRailnut
 
If you don't like what I wrote correct me or add to info, no need for personal attacks.
You may not know how it is on passenger railroads and I may not know how things go on freight railroads, its the part that you guys make it personal that makes you stand out.

 #248287  by HoggerKen
 
DutchRailnut wrote: Only about 10% of entire USA network is equipped with some kind of cab signalling device wich does not prevent a train from going tru a red but it can only pass a red at restricted speed 15 > 20 mph.
Now that I think about it, the northern line out of Chicago had ATS, which will stop you if you pass a red at any speed as I was told some ten years ago. ATS units are getting hard to come by anymore. In fact, they had to outfit some GP15's to lead coal trains and such up that line. However, even at a guess, I don't think it is 10% of the milage in the U.S.

On CTC territory, if you pass a red absolute, the whole world knows about it before you even have the chance to think up an excuse.

As so far, there are few systems that actually monitor you while you operate, save for the computer systems in AC type locomotives which "call home" if a mechanical problem crops up. In those units, there is so much communications gear, I have no doubt it would not be hard to establish some sort of direct, real time applications.

But for now, we must trust our skilled BLE and UTU Brothers to do their job professionally. For the most part, I do.

And yes, this is a Railfan venue, most of them I know appreciate accurate information about our Industry. Credibility goes a long way.

 #248294  by DutchRailnut
 
ON New Haven/PRR type cab signal /atc equipment there is no absolute stop, only if not acknowledged, but once acknowledged and going tru sequece of downgrades, from Clear Cab to Limited Cab to Medium Cab to Restricted Cab the speed is as low as it will go, on MNCR equipment its 15 mph, on other cariers using this system its set at 20 mph.
So in this situation one could go by a signal at 15 mph(or20) I did not say it was legal unlees you were given permission by RTC.

 #248307  by fjcaron
 
We are to bow down in silence and pray to the almighty God of Rail knowledge, Dutch The Rail Nut aka "Mr. Nut".

We wouldn't want to get fined for a bad alertor or ATS while were at it, better tuck in those HEP cables too ;-)
jg greenwood wrote:
You must be mistaken! The guru says 90%, and by God, 90% it is!
For the record, you're correct re: the CN.

 #248353  by jg greenwood
 
David Telesha wrote:The CDOT 2023 at CERM used in MNCR service has a deadman's pedal..

The cab cars, at least the earlier ones, MNCR and CDOT use have deadman's pedals...

On the NEC not all reds are absolute, some can be passed at restricted speed with DS permission.

Can we get along now JG?? Dutch isn't wrong about EVERYTHING.... :wink:

And who the hell is VERN?
"Vern" is in reference to a commercial that was on a few years ago. IIRC, the actors name was Jim Varney, sometimes known as Ernest P. Worrell

 #248399  by TR-00
 
Hey David, you don't need the permission to pass a "stop and proceed" signal anywhere on the corridor, and asking for it will bring the wrath of a roadforeman down on you because you are an idiot not to know.

 #248411  by fjcaron
 
Or the dispatchers will think your not all there, like one guy where I work that tried to get permission past a stop and proceed, was finally told 'apply the rule'.

:)

Well ya!
TR-00 wrote:Hey David, you don't need the permission to pass a "stop and proceed" signal anywhere on the corridor, and asking for it will bring the wrath of a roadforeman down on you because you are an idiot not to know.

 #248416  by TR-00
 
David, I did NOT mean you were an idiot...I meant the brain dead engineer who would sit there calling and calling for permission to pass a stop and proceed. Yes, there are a few of them out there.

 #248457  by GOLDEN-ARM
 
Sorry to bust your bubble, AGAIN, Dairy Queen, er, uh I mean DRN. Never been fired, even once. Sorry loser. As far as being a contractor, or trainer, it takes someone with more skills, than you will ever have. On my 5 years, and nine months with Conrail, I came across dozens, and dozens of locos, without alertors and deadman pedals. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. With over 10,000 miles of qualifications under my belt, you couldn't carry my grip, to the train.Tar & feather? What are you, some kind of nerd, living in the 19th century? I didn't get the assigned position of engineer, on the OCS with CR, by being a "trouble maker", or being a guy who gets fired. You ignorance is second, only to your arrogance. You constantly make quotes, that you can't back up. Some people would call these lies, but I won't go that far. I will say, however, that you are a "HACK", trying to impress others, with your made up knowledge, dubious facts and outright lies. I have also worked as an MOP, Master Mechanic, Trainmaster and Recruiter/Trainer. You wish you had the skills, to progress to any level in the career, other than where you are stuck at now. JG is another person who trains, and works positions on other roads, when available, for the experiences gained. You do a disservice to anyone you talk about, with your ill formed opinions, and lack of credible facts. Stop trying to defend yourself when caught up in the fact that you have no facts. Make your appologies, and move on to something you know about. (whatever the hell that might be) And rest assured, that by trying to "impress" folks, again, with your fictionalized account of your pay and benefits, you again prove you are a HACK. Real men and railroaders, don't try to impress those, with boasts about their paychecks. Instead of wasting your time in that health club, try going to the library, learning proper english and correct grammar, then learn the facts about railroading, before attempting to tout yourself AS SOME KIND OF AUTHORITY. Have a nice day, playing with those toy trains of yours...... :P
 #248475  by .Taurus.
 
Hi at all!
DutchRailnut wrote:90% of all locomotives in USA have alertors and other 10% or so still have a deadman pedal.
First, what is a alertor? Unfortunately i dont found something about it.
DutchRailnut wrote:Only about 10% of entire USA network is equipped with some kind of cab signalling device wich does not prevent a train from going tru a red but it can only pass a red at restricted speed 15 > 20 mph.
Is THIS a cab signalling device?
How does the data transmission works?
Can this devise stop the train for oneself, if it past a red signal?
Or is it a devise that only can help the crew to drive the train, by showing the signal status miles ahead?


On one railroad video, the cameraman was using a scanner and i can heard a computer generating voice.
My english is not so good, but i think it named the trainnumber and the milepost and some other stuff.
Is this a train securty system too?

Bye
 #248489  by HoggerKen
 
.Taurus. wrote:Hi at all!
DutchRailnut wrote:90% of all locomotives in USA have alertors and other 10% or so still have a deadman pedal.
First, what is a alertor? Unfortunately i dont found something about it.
An alerter is a device that is tied into the brake, throttle, whistle, or bell to detect their operation. If in a given time period, none have been used, it will give the Engineer a visual as well as aural alarm which has to be acknowledged. Working any of the above controls, or pushing an acknowledge button on the control stand will cancel the alerter. If not, the alerter will apply the air brakes.
.Taurus. wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:Only about 10% of entire USA network is equipped with some kind of cab signalling device wich does not prevent a train from going tru a red but it can only pass a red at restricted speed 15 > 20 mph.
Is THIS a cab signalling device?
Yes, that is a form of cab signals. Correct me if I am wrong, the photo shows cab signals from Conrail, ex-PC, and exx_Pennsylvania Railroad. In that case it is a CSS type.

I cannot speak for all systems out there, however on the old CNW in Iowa, ATC, a simple form of cab signals that displays only two aspects, clear and restricting, is used. There is a signal injected into the rail that governs the cab signals. Relay shantys along the way divide the track into "blocks". When no train is on the block ahead, the relay shanty will send out a high signal (measured in Hertz) in the rail. An inductor on the lead locomotive will read that high signal, and display a clear cab signal. If a train is ahead in the next block, or, a broken rail or bond wire is detected, the relay shanty will inject a low signal into the rail. When the locomotive senses this low signal, it will cause a restricting cab signal to be displayed.

These signals are analog in nature, and about the same type of signal used in grade crossing devices. So good track grounds are important to keep crossing signals from malfunctioning.
.Taurus. wrote:How does the data transmission works?
The locomotive when it sees a restricting cab signal will also sound an audio alarm telling the engineer to reduce speed. If the engineer fails to acknowledge this or act withing 40 seconds, a penallty brake application will be applied. The automatic brake pipe must be put into supression, and train must come to a stop. Along with the change in cab signal indication, a high speed whistle will sound if the train is over 17 mph with a restricting cab signal displayed. As long as the cab signal remains restricting, an alarm will sound periodically that must be acknowledged or a penalty brake application will commence.


.Taurus. wrote:Can this devise stop the train for oneself, if it past a red signal?
Or is it a devise that only can help the crew to drive the train, by showing the signal status miles ahead?


ATC (Automatic Train Control) on the old CNW lines (now Union Pacific) were not designed for wayside signals. That is because for a large portion of the line across Iowa, there were no wayside signals. Of course now, UP has installed a great deal of CTC in that territory. So now if you get an Advanced Approach, Approach, Diverging, or Red signal, the signal system knows to give ATC a low signal into the track which activates the Restricting cab signal.

.Taurus. wrote:Is this a train securty system too?
I am not sure what a Train Security system might entail. Again, based on the CNW ATC, the system is all analog, a product of 1920's era technology.

As an aside, it is very very very rare that one would get a false clear cab signal. I only know of one case where this has happened, and all traffic on the line in that area was stopped until a reason was found for that incident. Upsetting to engineers who depend on ATC to tell them of trains ahead.
 #259982  by .Taurus.
 
Are these cab signalling devices installed on the Amtrak NEC ??

Does the Signal go from one rail through the axle of the engine (where it will detect by the safty system of engine) and then back to the starting point throughthe second rail ? Or from the overhead Wire through the Engine and than through the rails?

Or reword, how does the cab signalling device of the Acela, the HHP8 and the other electrial enignes on the NEC work?
On the same way like on other routes?

Because of its high speed, i think these trains must have a cab signalling device.
And on the enigneer desk of the Acela, there are a cab signalling device visible (i think in form of the old prr signals -> Picture )


(In germany we use for track speeds about 100mph a cab signalling device too. (LZB))

Greets

 #260142  by LCJ
 
The cab signal system sends a current through the rails. The locomotive has an induction type of sensor that picks up this current's frequency. As a simplified description of how it works, a system of relays translates the code frequency of the current into a signal that is displayed in the cab.
 #260154  by UPRR engineer
 
.Taurus. wrote:
Does the Signal go from one rail through the axle of the engine (where it will detect by the safty system of engine) and then back to the starting point throughthe second rail ? Or from the overhead Wire through the Engine and than through the rails?
On UP units buddy, theres a cab signal "pick up bar" that reads the rails right under the front of the motor, about where the steps are at.