Training of an Engineer

Can anyone fill me in on the amount of time and hours of class and hands-on training required by FRA to become a qualified engineer? thanks

That's up to each individual railroad. On CSX time is around 6 months which in my opinion is way to short. If I was running it a year at least definitely longer. One can learn the basics but no more in that short of time. Just about anyone can start a train stopping and keeping it under control is another matter. Then there is the unusual occurances that can happen signals drop in ones face is one example knowing how to handle those circumstances is what makes a good locomotive engineer. In reality it shouldn't be anything less than 2 years training that still would be pushing it.

COEN77 wrote:Just about anyone can start a train stopping and keeping it under control is another matter.

COEN77, you couldn't describe it more accurately! I had a manager (VP level) once get on my train, and the first thing he said was that he has the engineers license... In other words, he was hoping that I was going to let him run the train. So, I asked him if he would like to be the engineer for the day? Immediately huge smile and, YES, he replies.
First, he almost rips the train apart as he had no concept of stretching out the slack. Then he dig's into independent (engine brake) as we stopped for a bad switch... slack runs in... there goes my coffee... #$%*@*!!! After I picked myself off the floor, I looked at this VP and asked him: Where the f**k did you lean run like this? He got all embarrassed and nervous... "I was never an engineer"... he replied. My background is engineering, but they offered us to get licensed at the corporate office, so I took the course. I only ran on the simulator. As you can imagine, his ego was crushed for the day, and he was pretty quiet for the rest of the trip.

jr441, All of them have these faux FRA certifications. The problem when certification became an issue the railroads used their influence in 1992 to get it passed before the presidential elections knowing it would be less restrictive under G W H Bush than Clinton. It basically became a joke. The FRA doesn't license anyone it's the railroads. The only thing it did was place harsh restrictions on locomotive engineers it didn't benefit us in any way. The unions theory was it would put us in a better position contractually but that backfired. Now we have some people running trains that shouldn't be allowed to ride a moped. Now the trainmen are becoming certified they won't like it.

Even before certification I remember a few strikes when management took over trying to run trains. They would give them 4-5 GP-40's on 50-60 cars they were ripping out drawheads and tearing up knuckles. They gave them books on the territory of subdivisions they've never seen before. Abolished all orders because they couldn't function if they had to run and have restrictions. There were derailments in the yard ect....The screwed more things up in 4 days of the strike of 1982 then anything that could of happened in a decade. It was hysterical.

COEN77 wrote:jr441, All of them have these faux FRA certifications. The problem when certification became an issue the railroads used their influence in 1992 to get it passed before the presidential elections knowing it would be less restrictive under G W H Bush than Clinton. It basically became a joke. The FRA doesn't license anyone it's the railroads. The only thing it did was place harsh restrictions on locomotive engineers it didn't benefit us in any way. The unions theory was it would put us in a better position contractually but that backfired. Now we have some people running trains that shouldn't be allowed to ride a moped. Now the trainmen are becoming certified they won't like it.

Even before certification I remember a few strikes when management took over trying to run trains. They would give them 4-5 GP-40's on 50-60 cars they were ripping out drawheads and tearing up knuckles. They gave them books on the territory of subdivisions they've never seen before. Abolished all orders because they couldn't function if they had to run and have restrictions. There were derailments in the yard ect....The screwed more things up in 4 days of the strike of 1982 then anything that could of happened in a decade. It was hysterical.

COEN77 that is one of the funniest stories I ever heard. That will teach the suits, or should have taught them that not just anyone can run these trains. Good story.

Is it like 90 hours or so, behind the controls per section of track ?? There has to be some sort of FRA set standard of hours before being certified.

rootsblown wrote:Is it like 90 hours or so, behind the controls per section of track ?? There has to be some sort of FRA set standard of hours before being certified.

90 hours per section of track? What does that mean? A section of track lets start with one subdivision that could be up to 200 miles. Is 90 hours sufficient? With CSX training policies for engineer trainees they must learn every subdivision, yard, industry jobs ect....in their consolidated seniority district all within 4 1/2 months. That could be 600-700 miles of track 4-5 different subdivisions 3 yards throw in a foreign railroad or two which means learning their rules ect...These people are clueless once promoted. All we could hope for as their trainers was they would grasp the basic concepts of how to operate the locomotive and of course the train they're hauling. That they would use common sense. There hasn't been a change from the original FRA certification on training since 1992. There have been more restrictions placed on issues like cell phones. laptops, speed rules ect...but not training. The railroads still control it not the FRA. My FRA certification card had big CSX letters with FRA in small lettering. It wasn't signed by any FRA official but by the CSX general road foreman of engines. Production line training is what it has become. I can only speak of CSX. I hope other railroads are better.

rootsblown wrote:Is it like 90 hours or so, behind the controls per section of track ?? There has to be some sort of FRA set standard of hours before being certified.

There is no FRA standard, there are no minimal required hours. Each railroad has it's own training program.

Not to mention the need to understand how weather and temperature effects your train as well. 6 months training between April and October does you no good running down a 2% grade in the snow.

So true...

I would think that the FRA would have some kind of control on this just because it is there job in a way to see that everything about a locomotive has rules and regulations to be fit and operitable on the rail but not to be concerned of how well the operator has been trained sounds to me like a good recipe for disaster. I also fear that there might be a railroad out there today that considers partial engineer training to consist of throwing a switch or taxing themselves and train crew to areport job location.

Choo Choo U at NJ Transit is 24 months (sometimes longer, depending on the student) - 6 to 8 months in class then the remaining 16 to 18 months spent qualifying and train handling, which in my opinion is still too short. What the railroads should do is bring back Fireman (basically you're a student Engineer for 3 to 4 years before being promoted).

The FRA requires (generally, and I'm sure can be slimmed depending on the railroad) 250 hours minimum behind the throttle before being eligible for a class 1 license (that is Train Service Engineer's license, not Class 1 Railroad). Everything else is at the discretion of the individual railroad and their training program which must be submitted to the FRA for approval before implementation - and in the end it all comes down to the supervisor qualifying you. If you run a better train than him/her, just hope they don't have some ego tree branch up their @$$. It it also my understanding that a portion of the 250 hours, but not all can be substituted by training on a simulator. I never really ran on one until coming to Amtrak from freight and that was an...uhm... experience. Anyone else care to elaborate?

49 CFR PART 240—QUALIFICATION AND CERTIFICATION OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS

The link above has all the info you need, straight from the FRA themselves. Basically, the training railroad gets a fair amount of lee-way in setting up their program, but it must be approved by the FRA before being implemented.

Engineer training these days is completely insufficient. There are "engineers" with several years seniority that still don't know how to run a train. I find it amazing these guys get over the road day to day without having a major wreck. The class 1's are teaching their new engineers how to set themselves up for catastrophe. Don't stretch brake! I consider stretch braking and power braking as two different methods. I guarantee less fuel will be used stretch braking than using dynamic at many locations management will say otherwise. It seems they scare new engineers into never using the air.. Cause it isn't fuel efficient I suppose. Meanwhile you take a heavy train down a steep grade with a signal in a curve.. Your amazing dynamics fail due to wet rail and a greaser on that curve.. Slide right through that stop signal. Cause no one ever taught you how to run a train or ignore company rules for true safety. More n more safety rules and less and less training is what is happening. Experience is out the window and the lawyers that make up all the new rules decide your fate. Learn from those that know.. Than apply what you need to.. To keep your job and get over the road safely.