COLOR BLIND TEST DURING PHYSICAL?

Well I went to the all-day information seminar/interview and when the guy mentioned a color-blind test, I told him that I had a red/green deficiency and he told me not to worry about it. He said that after I failed the card test, I would just go take a field test and be fine. Does it make a difference that I would be a Operations Supervisor Trainee? i am still wondering though exactly what is the field test. Also, who gives all of the color-blind tests.

I also have another question. I know what the human resources individuals told me about the Operations Supervisor Trainee position, but I was hoping that some of you guys and gals in the field could give a job description of what a Operations supervisor does at Norfolk Southern.

Thanks for all of the information.

Is this for the Transportation Dept? Some non-Operation department job? If it is for Operations involving train movements..............are you FREAKIN' KIDDING ME??? A RED and GREEN "deficiency"? Friend, this is NOT some "choo-choo" game you play on a computer or some foamer pipe dream! You are talking about the lives of fellow railroaders. There ARE some handicaps that, by the danger they present, cannot be excused or winked at thru the "entitlement" mentality of today's society! Railroading in all its forms, from train movements, to shop operations, to automobile usage, to golf cart driving is dangerous because of the environment it is in. If your hopeful employment is in a non-operating department, fine. If you are going to be involved with trains, uh...............let's see. Um.........Red and Green. The major aspects of a signal board! YIKES! You're giving me the shivers, and I hope they don't hire you. Used to be, NO employees were hired on Southern/NS with ANY color deficiencies. PERIOD. NO ONE! NO exceptions!

I don't mean to be rough on you or any hopeful employee. I just give it to you the way I see it. From the standpoint from an old Block Operator. Those signals are LIFE and DEATH! *I* could have KILLED someone by, for example, allowing a train to occupy a block without permission, NO! A whole crew.
Maybe caused what we called the dreaded "Headlight Meet"! Overlooking Signals and Train Sheets. UP to ME! One man! Red and Green (and Yellow=approach ) And it is even not THAT simple since various combinations of Red and Green (or Yellow) have several meanings like Diverging Route, etc.
You better believe that when I was on duty, i checked my signal switch, the Line Up and the train sheet over and over.................and over again until I was sure that any train had given up the block by lineside phone or marked OFF Duty! It is THAT important!! What if I "got by" the physical and couldn't discern Red from Green? (Shudder) It's not funny or trivial. I know, things are different now. Train Order Operators are over 15 years gone on NS, but misread signals still can kill somebody!!! I hope you are hired for something non-operational. Maybe they have relaxed the rules for non-op departments. I hope you can see where I am coming from without taking offense.

Gadfly

Well here is the deal with color vision. Trust me I have been battling this my whole life.

Red/Green colorblind or more aptly "deficiency" does not mean you cannot see Red or Green. It is a medical term to describe an anomaly in the spectrum of these colors. For example someone may have a violet shirt on that is mostly blue violet (95% blue and 5% red lets say).. Now, some people will have a little problem identifying it as violet right away. They aren't colorblind, just weak.. At the same time they can identify color lights without hesitation but may struggle with the ishihara exam.

However, there are those people who are missing a color cone in the eyes. These people cannot tell Red from Green, its one muddled color. These people represent about 1% of the 13% of population with color discrimination problems. These are the people who cannot safely be in a color sensitive occupation. All the tests are designed to catch these people right away but a bias has been placed upon all people who have a problem with the ishihara tests... It is not a perfect test. It cannot determine severity.

I cannot pass the Ishihara test confidently within the FRA standards. I'll get about 6 wrong out of 25. I was told many times I am colorblind. Most doctors are shocked when I told them I was in the Navy and even more shocked when I told them I flew Seahawks with HSL-48 Vipers. I took a test called the farnsworth lantern and the aviation lights test AND the optec 900. Basically all the same test designed to discriminate aviation white(amber) green, and red at a distance. Flight ready.

So why is the Ishihara dot test held up with the FRA? It is cheap and quick to administer. Any other color sensitive employer will examine you further if you struggle with the dot tests. Even the NAVY! I knew an LSO who could not pass the Ishihara test but had no deficiency after many alternative tests.

So the problem is that the medical community groups people who see in black and white, cannot decipher red from green, and those who see all colors but are weak on a few hues into the same pot. Its like calling someone with 20/200 vision (legally blind)and someone with 20/40 the same safety risk.

Just my two cents, but knowledge is power and those who failed an ishihara test should seek further testing.

Gadfly

I didn't say that I couldn't see red or green. I can tell the signals just fine as well as the boards. It is not that red and green look the same to me, I just don't do well on the Ishihara test. Heck, I have known people that aren't color-blind and have problems with those cards.If you laid colors out for me or even took me to the signals, I will tell you what is red, green or yellow is. I was just wondering, if anyone had taken the field test. From the job description though, I am not driving trains, so rest assured.

Also, I was just asking the question. I don't know the process and I knew that you guys had been around the railroad for quite some time. Sorry for asking. I will go take my field test and believe me, if I thought that I would be putting someone's life in danger, I wouldn't even be attempting to get this job. I know all about safety, I have spent many years in the military, where people's lives are in my hands everyday.

Hello Gadfly!

I just wanted to let you know that they have glasses and contact lenses for certain types of color blindness. I found the link to the company that makes them. Also, for most job vision tests they let you have your glasses on. So if you were to get those glasses (that is if yours is the kind of color blindness that the lenses can correct) you could possibly still be able to pass the test and drive a train. Here's the company's link: http://www.color-view.com/index.php. I hope that this helps.

Rgds,

PurpleGirl

That's it? That one test with several tests inside of it A through H? I've taken that test a million times to get my DOT for driving a truck. Is it safe to say the engineers physical is about the same or is exactly the same a CDL DOT exam? Thanks JR

I have read through this topic twice and I have the same problem. I can see colors just fine, stoplights, signals, etc. I know what green, red and yellow are and I can tell the difference. I always fail the Ishihara test. Amtrak sent me for the physical yesterday and as luck would have it I got the dreaded Ishihara test. Does anybody know if Amtrak generaly offeres a sencond chance IE: Field test, fansworth lantern etc? Thanks

As far as I know, Amtrak doesn't do a field or lantern test. We had a discussion about this earlier this week in my training class, and according to the instructor, if you couldn't pass the Ishihara, you can't get a job in T&E service. Now, there's a guy here who has a "deficiency," but not full-blown color blindness. He passed the Ishihara, so I'm assuming his issue is pretty mild, but he didn't take any kind of modified or alternate color test.

An amtrak conductor told me you didn't need to pass a colorblind test to be a conductor, at least for amtrak. Is this true for most passenger railroads?

MaineEasternFL9 wrote:An amtrak conductor told me you didn't need to pass a colorblind test to be a conductor, at least for amtrak. Is this true for most passenger railroads?

Dunno about any currently lowered standards, but common sense tells us that ANY train movements, passenger or otherwise, are governed by lighted or flagged signals. As such, safety dictates that there can be NO relaxation of standards that joepardize the safety of people of equipment. That means that there must be a standard that leaves NO doubt as to a railroad employee's ability to distinguish colors of lights, flags, or other signals. IOW, YOUR opinion of your ability to distinguish colors doesn't COUNT, and a RED BOARD should never be a thing of doubt, but instantly discernable and able to be acted upon RIGHT NOW; you should NEVER have to be squinting at a signal and wondering, "is that signal "RED"?

We as prospective RR employees, when there is a question of one's color perception, seem to be more concerned with, "can I squeak by this test" more so than, "am I FULLY safe in my color (or even depth) perception so that I can perform this job and not injure my fellow railroaders or property". It is not YOUR opinion that counts (nor mine, for that matter. This should be an "either I AM fully color qualified, or I am NOT", and if you are not, then you are NOT qualified to be a railroad employee. However, I am so harsh seemingly because, when i qualified on color perception in the '70's, it WAS an "either-or" proposition: you WERE qualified or you WEREN'T. Thus, to me, if I know I am working with an employee whose color perception is questionable (where he can place my life on the line in T & E service, THEN I DO NOT WANT TO WORK WITH THAT EMPLOYEE. I would HATE to think that political correctness and the "ME" generation has dictated that safety take a back seat!


Gadfly

Thanks Gadfly! I wouldn't ever want to risk my own or other people's lives.

I have always said this as well. Probably until people get tired of hearing it. You don't HAVE to be in T & E service to work in the industry!!!! Many of us not only have "color deficiency", we-have-TUNNEL VISION!!!! I think people don't believe me, either when I say that THERE IS FAR, FAR MORE TO THE RAILROAD THAN "DRIVING" A TRAIN (a term I have never liked or understood; HOW do you "drive" a train? It has NO steering wheel!!!!!) There's jobs within the industry that range from DRIVING A FORK LIFT to driving TRUCKS, to running a MILLING MACHINE or LATHE, to WELDING, to ENGINE MECHANIC-DIESEL or gas to
repairing freight cars. There's shop crafts such as rebuilding and maintaining track machinery. There's Building and Bridges ( B & B Department), there's a department that maintains camp cars and crew trailers, there's carpenters and traveling mechanics that follow the gangs around (usually there's a traveling mechanic assigned to each gang.(Sometimes called a PUMP REPAIRMAN) And, of course, there's the gangs themselves such as Tie and Surfacing, Rail Gangs, Rail Heater Gangs, and these have machine operators such asTie Crane and Ballast Regulator or Ballast Cleaner/Tamper Gang. And there's LABORERS OF ALL SORTS! I won't KID you: some of these jobs, YOU WILL WORK YOUR BUTT OFF!!! Some of these employees work in fixed shops on fixed shifts. Some have color restrictions, some do not. Just because you may have some color problems, it doesn't ncesssarily follow that you CAN'T work in the industry at all. it just means that some jobs may be unavailable to you. Still some of us have this fixation on trains (ah jist gots to drive that dere train, or I'll jist DIE) and don't even TRY for the craft jobs that might already FIT your experience and talents! Or are you "too good" to work, think you've got to sit on your a-- in a locomotive (why I'd never dream of getting filthy, grimy dirty and that's why you think you gotta "drive a train"? Are you too good to SWEAT? Railroad work is grimy, HARD work!

Depending on the craft, the shop, the seniority of the existing employees, you could actually move into a shift job that gives you (eventually) 7:00 AM to 3:30 PM with weekends OFF!!! Sure, it's rare to get such a shift (NS's Charlotte Roadway shops [repairs track machinery] often HAS such shifts depending on the work load has worked 1st and 2nd--even 3rd trick---in the past) The pay is decent, you get the SAME RR retirement benefits, the same union scale, and the same company bennies/vacation as the T & E folks.
The drawback is, the pay may be slightly less than T & E, BUT!!!!!!!! The set shifts and rest days pay dividents WRT family stability and peace!!!

While Transportation people may not welcome you with color problems and may question even the slightest anomoly don't think this is because we want to keep YOU out. Look at the WHOLE company and what it offers and keep attuned to ALL job openings. Apply for them! Not getting to "play" with choo choos is not the end of the world.

Gadfly

Well, if color blindness might affect an engineer's ability to run a train, I guess we should try and get the railroads to comply with ADA regulations for employees. The only possible way to do that is to get them to replace all the signals with semaphore arms. I know that no railfan wants to see semaphores, but it should be done for those who can't see the colors. Is there anything left of the company that was once known as US&S?

Sure, why not? The tail usually wags the dog in this country anymore so let's retrofit the signal system in the entire country in order to not discriminate against color blind people who want to be an engineer.

Yeah, right.

Haven't we done more than enough standard lowering in this country? You know, I really wish I could play for my Pittsburgh Penguins but I'm not good enough and I really wish I was a porn star but...

RedLantern wrote:Well, if color blindness might affect an engineer's ability to run a train, I guess we should try and get the railroads to comply with ADA regulations for employees. The only possible way to do that is to get them to replace all the signals with semaphore arms. I know that no railfan wants to see semaphores, but it should be done for those who can't see the colors. Is there anything left of the company that was once known as US&S?

Now that's EXACTLY what I was talking about!!!!! I,I. I, I, I, I, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!!! What I,I,I,I,I,I,I want. The "GIMME" self-indulged generation(s) that think that they are the ONLY thing that counts. To BLAZES with safety!!!! *I* am soooooooooo important that the world must make all these changes to occomodate ME,ME,ME,ME,ME! UGH! I just TOLD you a myriad of ways to hold a JOB in the rail industry! But, just like rest of the ones FIXATED on trains alone, you come back with THIS effuence. It reads (whether you realize it or not), "I AM SO IMPORTANT AND I HAVE THIS "RIGHT" TO OPERATE TRAINS DESPITE MY LACK OF ABILITY TO DO SO AND DESPITE PLACING THE LIVES AND PROPERTY OF OTHERS IN JEOPARDY, YOU MUST ACCOMODATE ME EVEN IF IT MEANS i MIGHT KILL OR INJURE INNOCENT PEOPLE!!!!!!!" True, you might never do that with your particular deficiency, but the potential for harm is not worth the risk. And I hope the rail industry is NEVER, NEVER forced to yield to dangerous relaxation of standards
EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All this does is harden my own conviction that I do NOT want to WORK with people who cannot fully and completely fulfill their duties whether it be a question of complying with signals or physical deficiencies that place ME or my fellow employees at risk, I am sure that those still working share that same reluctance to work with color-deficient employees, and I hope they NEVER have to. Once again, there are THOUSANDS of jobs within the rail industry that do NOT require color compliance. You should apply for THOSE if you can't pass the test and stop believing that your assumed deficiency gives you some "right" to operate trains or the world must change to accomodate you!


Gadfly