Locomotive Lateral Motion On CSX Power

I probably ought to ask in the forums of the other RR's, but here goes:

Every member of a CSX crew has had an engine from time to time with lateral motion, some excessive.

It is not too hard to tell that severely worn parts or some improper alignment of parts is the cause.

The question is: Has anyone ever experienced excessive lateral motion on a foreign road engine? I don't ever remember it happening. Only on CSX engines.

Second question: Does anyone know directly, or has anyone heard exactly how much damage is done to the track structure when a 200+ ton locomotive is thrashing about like a wounded wild grizzly bear? It has to do something I would think...anyone know?

The implied question is, with all the track maintenance difficulties CSX has had, why would they allow known E.L.M. locos out on the mainlines? Yeah, yeah, dumb question, I know, but it HAS to be asked.

CSX is not unique in lack of locomotive maintenance. Most RR's usually
run the life out of their locomotives until they fall apart or blow up.
I think it is a crap shoot why you have not seen a foreign road unit
with excessive lateral motion. They are out there and it will be only a
matter of time before one shows up on your run.

MuddyAxles wrote:I probably ought to ask in the forums of the other RR's, but here goes:

Every member of a CSX crew has had an engine from time to time with lateral motion, some excessive.

It is not too hard to tell that severely worn parts or some improper alignment of parts is the cause.

The question is: Has anyone ever experienced excessive lateral motion on a foreign road engine? I don't ever remember it happening. Only on CSX engines.

Second question: Does anyone know directly, or has anyone heard exactly how much damage is done to the track structure when a 200+ ton locomotive is thrashing about like a wounded wild grizzly bear? It has to do something I would think...anyone know?

The implied question is, with all the track maintenance difficulties CSX has had, why would they allow known E.L.M. locos out on the mainlines? Yeah, yeah, dumb question, I know, but it HAS to be asked.

I rember about 8-9 years ago seeing 3 Southern Pacific SD45-2T's leading a Conrail train and all 3 units were in vary bad shape. The lead unit was fish tailing side to side while the outher two units looked to have shot springs as they bouced and rocked side to side even after slowing down to control the rocking did little to stop them.

I was on a loco a few days ago with such bad lateral motion my conductor almost fell out of his seat. We have some lousy track which just amlpifies the issues.

What is the exact component(s) that are worn that cause this issue?

Wore out "yawns" on older locomotives.

Newer units the (think thats what there called --->) dampners, the big shocks on the side frames.

I had a UP SD60M last summer that had some bad lateral motion when you got up to about 55, just kept it going and enjoyed the ride!

NV290 wrote:I was on a loco a few days ago with such bad lateral motion my conductor almost fell out of his seat. We have some lousy track which just amlpifies the issues.

What is the exact component(s) that are worn that cause this issue?

There are two factors.

The more common (to me), that we used to see in the dear, dead Conrail era...was wear at the frame sill, the indentation that the truck bolsters sit in. Forces would cause the frame to slide side-to-side on the worn socket, and you'd have jarring lateral motion.

The OTHER...now, I'm not a machinist. But I used to be a rail tester...railroad wheels are beveled, conical. They are tapered for a purpose; the equipment is riding right when the flanges are 3/8 of an inch away from the rail. Gravity and the taper helps the axle find its "sweet spot" and the flange never contacts except in curves.

With locomotive drivers, there's going to be some slippage, wear...especially in those new "high-adhesion" units that allow computer-controlled limited slippage.

So a groove wears in the tread.

One unnamed former railroad ( ) used to make a big deal of changing out and trueing locomotive drivers. The Conway shops had a corner dedicated to nothing else, with an enormous wheel-garden of geared drivers, waiting for need.

CSX doesn't put that priority on it.

So, what happens is, the locomotive (or car) starts "high-siding," slapping from side to side, against one flange and then another. It makes for a miserable ride, and beats the crap out of the roadbed....think of the weight, the forces involved.

But, but, but...it saves MONEY!!!

A seasoned engineer told me a story involving either a GP7, GP9 or some other Geep. The unit hit a rough spot on the tracks and bottomed out on its springs. The unit kept rocking back and forth for a while which meant the springs were shot.

AND, he spilled his coffee too............

why does putting a little independent brake on often help control the ride?

I had a Geep 40 the other day, long nose out. It was rocking so bad I had to slow down so i could throttle out when passing station platforms (it seemed to ride better when under power) along with putting a little independent on as well. I didn't have a long or heavy train, only 6 cars.

It was the worse Ive ever experienced...too bad i left my Dramamine at home!!!

Amtrak E60's were notorious for lateral motion and putting a little
independent brake on would stop the sway at speed.

There's nothing like having a unit that keeps bouncing flange to flange at 60 mph! And worn out springs? Sounds like every IC unit! I especially like the SD70's that have the 'dog humping' sound, it also doesn't help that our track sucks.

uhaul wrote:A seasoned engineer told me a story involving either a GP7, GP9 or some other Geep. The unit hit a rough spot on the tracks and bottomed out on its springs. The unit kept rocking back and forth for a while which meant the springs were shot.

You see that on many of the old 8mm film clips with videos haveing to do with early Conrail footage as well as the outher roads taken into Conrail taken in the 70's.

Jtgshu wrote:why does putting a little independent brake on often help control the ride?

I had a Geep 40 the other day, long nose out. It was rocking so bad I had to slow down so i could throttle out when passing station platforms (it seemed to ride better when under power) along with putting a little independent on as well. I didn't have a long or heavy train, only 6 cars.

It was the worse Ive ever experienced...too bad i left my Dramamine at home!!!

Putting some independent on it helps for the same reason throttling out helps, or putting moderate/heavy dynamic helps.

Apparently the groove worn in wheel treads is not deep...I haven't been able to eyeball it; but I've seen a few with a straightedge.

But loading the wheel, putting either torque or resistance, tends to make it track better, stop the side-to-side slap.

That slap is real; and if you have one that's very bad at it, you can step on the steps at about 15 mph and see that lead truck going side to side, trying to climb off the rails.

Most excessive lateral motion (on CSX at least) can be attributed to bad track. Some engines are more prone to it than others. For some six axle locomotives lateral motion is caused or worsened by worn out pedestal liners. Older Flexi-Coil three axle trucks with any amount of broken MAIN coil springs will lead to severe rocking and ride issues. They are also the hardest to see which are broken. On the bottom of the truck castings at the center of the main coils is an inspection hole. They are often plugged with leaves and debris giving the inspector an "eye full" when poking around to clean it out. A flash light will reveal if any are broken. I have found up to three out of four on truck broken. Other locomotives notorious for excessive lateral motion were the B36-7's. Particularly when they were coupled back to back, but even on their own they still are the least preferred loco around. I figure they're problem is perhaps a weight imbalance from end to end. We've removed the tucks and changed lateral dampers with no success.
SD60M's had a damper welded to the top of each truck to help a unique problem they had.
EMD's Isolated cabs sit on several pedestals underneath the cab cushioned by rubber donuts. These pedestals have been known to break, making the cab of the locomotive simulate severe lateral motion issues. Allegedly the weight imbalance between the front of the cab and the back put excess pressure on the front of the cab. If you look at a lot of the EMD isolated cab engines the rubber gasket that runs around underneath the cab is squished more towards the front leaving a large gap towards the rear of the cab.
My personal least favorite is the GE radial truck found on the AC6000's and AC4400's. When they wear out they provide the most violent ride of all. I was really happy to see CSX buying the GEVO's with the high adhesion trucks. They ride much better and have little slop in them.