MTA Alternative to Amtrak's Empire Corridor Service

Rhinecliff wrote:I have no problem with New York continuing its long tradition of subsidizing intercity passenger rail rail service, but I think New York State needs to take over the operation of the Empire Corridor from Amtrak and turn it over to the Metro-North. Presently, State Senator Bruno's task force is considering the purchase of a special fleet of equipment designated for service on the Empire Corridor. I hope the task force has the presence of mind to insist on a new operator for the service, because Amtrak's beltway management has proven itself utterly unfit for the job.

That would definitely be a start. Let MNRR take over Empire Corridor, and you'd have much better coordination, and service alternatives, like restored intercity service to GCT, and potential intercity service into other major destinations from upstate like White Plains. Combine this with the TZB options being considered, and you have some real possibilities.

Wasn't aware that 110mph was possible considering West Albany Hill and single track in an urban area.

The turbo train project was "pork barallel" at its best, provide local people
with a job on a project that wasn't worth much in the first place and it
truly cost a fortune. What they got back was obselete and worn out trains
with a patch job and new paint, they were expensive to run and when they
did run it was on a "wing and a prayer". Amtrak was not getting anything
extra to run those rolling scrap heaps so they wisely pulled the plug on
them.
If new equipment was so important, New York State would have done
much better to buy a few more new coaches for these trains.
Yes, Metro-North could undoubtly do a decent job with this operation but
their equipment is not as decent as Amtrak's is and the cost of providing
this service would increase drastically. Who do you people suggest pay
for this increase in costs? The taxpayers of New York or the fare paying
passengers who use this service, there are not many other choices.
Amtrak is not getting any operating support from the state for the service
between Albany and New York, only for the Adirondack north of Albany.
As far as a morning train out of Schenectady, there was one for quite
some time but as I understand it, the number of people riding that train
would not even fill a bus, I don't think there is much of a market for more
service out of Schenectady.
Noel Weaver

The turbo train project was "pork barallel" at its best, provide local people with a job on a project that wasn't worth much in the first place and it truly cost a fortune. What they got back was obselete and worn out trains with a patch job and new paint, they were expensive to run and when they did run it was on a "wing and a prayer".

I agree with much, but not all, of Mr. Weaver's assessment of the turbo project. The trains were certainly worn out and suffering from design flaws, such as HVAC defficiencies, that were not, and probably could not, be addressed in a rebuild. Simply put, the equipment was shot and should have been scrapped. No doubt about it.

But as between the parties to the joint venture (i.e., State of New York and Amtrak), Amtrak was in by far the best position to understand the future potential of the turboliner equipment, and Amtrak should have refrained from entering into the joint venture. It was absolutely absurd for Amtrak -- with all of its knowledge of the turboliner equipment -- to enter into a joint venture only to reject the equipment upon its delivery, under the guise, no less, that the equipment did not come with instruction manuals. Even Amtrak's worst critics could not make up stories like this.

Finally, don't underestimate the market potential of Schenectady. To be sure, the City of Schenectady is no hot market, but the surrounding suburbs in all directions are growing -- especially southern Saratoga County just up Erie Blvd. from the train station.

-no doubt that the capital region is growing, and sprawling into the countryide. The question is, if commuter train service were provided by an Albany regional commuter railroad -- let's call it Metro North -(North) --, would there be enough support to fill the cars? NY State itself has already dispersed many government offices out of downtown, to allow easier highway commuting. So have most private employers. Albany has excellent interstate access from all directions. True, the roads are busy in rush hour, although it seems very light to anyone who has done rush hour driving in the NY City area.
-if they build it, will they come? At present probably not. If the driving become impossible maybe, in the future. If regular rail commuting is ever established, it would need to be part of a coordinated plan putting malls, commercial and government office parks on the rail line to promote usage.
If traffic is not too bad, most Americans would prefer to drive everywhere.

Roger

This is beginning to turn into a discussion purely about Amtrak. This thread needs to be brought right back to Metro North related very soon or I am going to move it to the Amtrak forum.

Kevin

As I recall the turbo deal was entered into under President Warrington and the idea partly seemed to be "we're so desperate, we'll take anything". And when Gunn came along and looked at actual operating costs, he started to shut down the deal.

And I don't think refusing them for lack of maintenance manuals (not instruction) is necessarily totally insane. Remember, NYS only paid for the initial rebuild, not the ongoing maintenance. If Amtrak was expected to maintain them they were well within their rights to expect to actually receive the required maintenance manuals.

I would have to agree that Amtrak management doesn't have the brightest bulbs in the industry. Most of the talent gets hired away by the freight roads.

I would also have to agree that NYS should have Metro-North or some other similar entity take over Empire Service, since it would mean that NYS would have to finally fund the operating costs.

And many other states have contributed to capital improvements for the benefit of Amtrak trains, in addition to operating support.

I agree.

I really doubt that the Metro North would be more expensive in the long run. The incremental cost of extending the line upstate might be offset by the explosive growth in ridership that could take place if the service was provided by a carrier that was properly managed at the top level.

Even if it ends up costing New Yorkers more, I am absolutely confident that the service would be of a higher quality. In addition, I would hope that the Metro North would protect Amtrak's existing employees and bring them over at the Metro North's higher level of pay and benefits.

No matter what, I think it would be a big win for New York.

arnstg wrote:Wasn't aware that 110mph was possible considering West Albany Hill and single track in an urban area.

When I took the Adirondack to Montreal back in October, I was surprised to see 110 mph indicated on my GPS receiver between Rensselaer and Schenectady. North of Schenectady is another matter, though - the Adirondack is slow from that point onward!

I don't think it's fair to call the rebuilt Turboliners "worn out". They were stripped to the bare frame and completely rebuilt, so virtually every component in them was brand new. When I rode aboard the "RTL III" back in 2003, it sure felt new and was nicer than the Amfleet equipment used on the route.

Even a rebuilt mode T ford feels new but its still absolete dangerous technology.
Nobody wants the Turbo liners and their history, not even museums are interested as they have no historical significans.

So, now they've gone from merely being fuel hungry to being dangerous? All I know is that while you make them sound like the worst trains ever built, I found them to be the nicest trains I ever rode aboard on the Empire Corridor.

I am a railfan, type romantic. Thus, I do not have much to offer when it comes to assessing the state of the technology of the Turbos. I will leave that discussion to railfan, type-choo choos (hopefully, all will appreciate the self deprecatory humor). I do know, however, that the airconditioning systems on these trains were deplorable before and after the rebuild. Beyond that, I defer.

I think what (is controversial to some) is the complete fiasco of seeing tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money used to rebuild that equipment -- or any equipment, for that matter -- only to have the equipment abandoned by Amtrak upon completion. Amtrak was well aware of condition, features, and capabilities of this equipment before it entered into the joint venture with the State of New York. That Amtrak failed to act on that knowledge before entering into the joint venture is deplorable. That some railfans seem so willing to excuse this type of conduct never ceases to amaze me.

I cannot imagine the Metro North engaging in such outragious conduct.


MODERATOR'S NOTE: Edit due to personal attack - 12/08/06 11:46 AM

Rheinkliff wrote:That Amtrak failed to act on that knowledge before entering into the joint venture is deplorable

Amtrak failed to act on nothing. Super Steel delivered the trainsets sans maintenance manuals, otherwise the Turboliners would be running today. I don't see Kummant resurrecting the Turbos; and why would they not be resurrected as fast as the Acelas have been (twice) if everything was kosher with Super Steel? (which it clearly is not; and Super Steel has a double-whammy against it what with the "fiery" reputation of LIRR's DM30AC dual-mode diesels.)

Not to mention, where are the 125-mph segments of the Empire Corridor that NY State was supposed to deliver along with the RTLs? The P42DCs and P32AC-DMs at least would be able to operate at 110 mph along those parts of the corridor. Those were not on Amtrak to deliver, since they are not Amtrak-owned (and IIRC they are not even NYS-owned at present).

JVD wrote:Even a rebuilt mode (sic) T ford feels new but its still absolete (sic) dangerous technology

What are you comparing the Model T to, and what trainset are you comparing the RTL with in order to say that "rebuilding a RTL to be like (Train X) is like rebuilding a Model T to be like (Car X)"? Not to mention putting things out of context as far as the technological era—when the Model T was new, the corresponding rail technology was the 4-8-2 Mountain type steam loco (like the Pacific, the type originated in New Zealand) and jackshaft electric locomotives.

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If you can cite any other reasons that David Gunn gave for rejecting the RTLs that you regard as false (including that one), go ahead and do so. Not to mention, the lack of RTLs are not the hindrance to desirable Empire Corridor service strictly by themselves.


MODERATOR'S NOTE: Combined two posts by same author into one. No edit of material. 12/08/06 11:48 AM

Rhinecliff--
Modern trains, planes and cars are much too complicated to work on without shop manuals. (Way back in 1973, I had a new Toyota and wanted to speed up the idle, but I didn't see the setscrew I was used to. Instead, the shop manual said, "get your voltmeter..." In the time I owned the car, I never did get the idle adjusted. And stuff has gotten much more complicated in the 30+ years since. Now, even your corner garage has to have electronic diagnostic equipment. And trains are more complicated than cars.) And, why should Amtrak have to waste its expensive mechanics' time trying to figure out how to maintain the trains? Why were the shop manuals omitted by Super Steel anyway? Just another example of the slipshod renovation, whose only real purpose was to provide Joe Bruno with some pork.