Through Running Instead of Penn South?

https://www.amny.com/news/137538011/

A non-profit organization is calling Governor Andrew Cuomo’s Empire Station Complex an antiquated approach to improving transportation capacity while missing an opportunity to provide eastward commuter train service at Penn Station.

ReThinkNYC, which is among the opponents to the proposal to expand Penn Station to south by possibly demolishing buildings a block to the south, says the 40% increase in capacity is based on an obsolete transit template and should instead include through-service for Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and Long Island Rail Road.
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According to the organization, through-running service would increase capacity for 20% more NJ Transit commuters and nearly 50% more LIRR riders. MTA Spokesman Aaron Donovan, however, dispelled the notion that a more seamless system running from New Jersey through Long Island would be feasible without a prior expansion of Penn Station.

“The MTA, Amtrak and New Jersey Transit have studied through-running as part of the Master Plan for the expansion of Penn as part of the long-hoped for Gateway program. We have included plans for additional through running in the future in all he scenarios we are considering. But so far expert analysis indicates that this – like the many other paper plans we have seen from others – doesn’t obviate the need for additional tracks and platforms to accommodate the significantly larger number of trains that will be coming across the Hudson once the Gateway Tunnels are built.”
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So, we meet again ReThinkNYC... They're basically proposing a through service through Penn, which means extending the LIRR to Secaucus and NJT to Sunnyside. Still a fan of Trans Regional Express which has numerous service proposals and restorations, including a through line past Grand Central to Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn.

Power supply is going to be the issue. The M8s can't handle 25Hz power. That leaves the ALP45DPs, and they'd be stuck operating in diesel mode east of Harold on Long Island. They could stay electric as part of PSAS, but that wouldn't really be helping the station capacity any, all that might do is provide an avenue to enable PSAS to happen with existing capacity.

The basic idea that hugely expensive excavated station space under the most expensive land in the country should not be used for storing trains is pretty sound. It's also reasonable to think that more trails will require more platforms even if trains are running through. Sounds like competing calculations based on different inputs (different desired service levels?). Or are the run-through people just fans of running through for other reasons, latching onto this argument because it favors them? Running trains through would not, of course, stop most cross-metro-area trips from requiring a change, because it's not like every line would run through to every other line.

And there's no way that Secaucus would be able to
handle the volume without NJ agencies involvement & completely
reconfiguring the surrounding area through property purchase
and/or imminent domain to satisfy the arrival/departure demand
As it is Amtrak doesn't stop there for that very reason
NJ DOT has enough on it's plate as it is for years to come
and you'd also need Federal funding to help realize it...
Better NJ Transit and DOT get HBLR extension done
among many other things than get involved with this
New York should get get West Bronx commuter service into Penn Station
said & done Long before it even considers this..

I think everyone's got it here: Equipment issues, power issues, etc. Even timing and tunnel capacity. There's soooo much that is so wrong with the proposal. These guys need to give a plan on how to pull it off before they get more credibility.

My gosh again with this

Wasn’t the RPA or whoever pushing for something like this just last year?

Yup; couldn't find the thread. In some cases, I think it makes sense where the tech isn't the issue. ALP's into Westchester, Gennies onto Long Island. I'm pretty sure the Hi-Level EMU's NJT are getting could do this as well. You're not going to be able to run MTA equipment onto LI. If you're using an ALP-45, then you could run out to Jamaica. Secaucus won't work.

With thru trains how is Sunnyside (SSY) going to handle the additional equipment ? Does NJT have to deadhead equipment to NJ now ?

If NJT ran through to the NH Line the need for Sunnyside would be alleviated. AFAIK they do not deadhead back to NJ.

Now, it occurs to me that one issue would be crews. When they were running the football trains, MNRR crews ran it to NYP, then they changed there; that eats up a platform. If instead they just ran to New Rochelle Track 4 and turned in the yard there, that would eliminate the need for an MNRR crew.

Another thing (of course, pre-pandemic timeframe):

You have 13 tracks you can unload, reload, and get out the door. You have through-running Amtraks, turning Amtraks, LIRR turning, and NJ Transit turning. All the tracks are getting used, essentially. They *may* have enough capacity to work on a single track, but that's it -- as seen before, if you got to work on a switch or a major chunk of track, you gotta lighten up the load.

You through-run some NJ Transit trains, you make the dynamics change. The dance of getting trains onto and off platforms changes. It's to the level of having just mastered the cha-cha, and now you're asked to ace the Time Warp. You haven't even gotten the twist down yet!

Can you unload an entire NJT rush-hour train (pre-pandemic, stuffed full including standees, Bombardier Multilevels) in 5 minutes? Absolutely not, you're bottle-necking at the stairs... and if you're through-running, maybe you're getting 95% unloading at Penn? You're still taking up maybe a full 20 minutes to get it ready to go again. Add in a crew change, and you have to brake test... you're tying up a platform for a good 30 minutes.

This is where I go back to the people proposing the idea and demand full plans, equipment, operations, construction, the lot. Watch 'em shut up when the bar to entry gets Empire State Building high.

Would the proposal be possible and useful if it involved paired lines like Septa has? Trains running Morrisville (Trenton) to Port Jefferson, for example?

Literalman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 pm Would the proposal be possible and useful if it involved paired lines like Septa has? Trains running Morrisville (Trenton) to Port Jefferson, for example?

Not really. You still got operational, equipment, and capacity issues. The bottleneck is NYPenn.

The narrow platforms and lack of multiple exits and entrances to platforms does not allow quick turns of trains for LIRR , NJT & Amtrak. IMO the only solution is to widen the platforms + Penn south wide platforms requiring demo of MSG.

Very true -- you can move an empty train out of a platform that's still jammed with detraining passengers awaiting their turn on an up escalator. Now if you could just through-route the passengers ... but Penn Station is where they need to go.