Empire Service Electrification? Penn Station NYP - Albany

Not strictly Amtrak (since they don't own most of it) but NYS has been trying to get a new powerline down to NYC from upstate for awhile now.
The most recent plan I believe still involves burying a cable in the Hudson.

I've suggested it be run along the air-rights above Empire Line... and use this infrastructure to eventually electrify it.

That would involve erecting 115kV transmission towers right down the bank of the Hudson River from Rensselaer all the way to Yonkers. Right through the view from such things as FDR's house at Hyde Park, the US Military Academy at West Point, and the Bear Mountain Bridge. That would raise a Hinckley-Minnesota-1894-level firestorm of protest. And you'd have to somehow get the Second Circuit to reverse a 1965 decision that banned Con Edison from building a huge hydro plant and pumped storage facility on Storm King Mountain. It's a decent idea for a location for the line, but I think it breaks down somewhat when you think through the practicalities. The towers would be a heck of a lot more obtrusive than the old lineside high voltage feeder lines in ex-New York Central 3rd rail territory.

Well, if you don't go air-rights the entire way, bury it where you can. Regardless, the idea of putting it down the Hudson strikes me as completely foolish.

The answer to get more electricity south to New York City is to run more 345 kV transmissions lines, or change an existing one into a 500kV transmission line, not run another 138 kV or lower transmission line. Electrifying the existing Empire Line with overhead catenary is a good idea, and should only be done when the decision is made to run more intercity trains on the corridor. Presently, Amtrak only needs 18 P32AC dual mode locomotives for power for the Empire Service trains, I would think providing a service with frequencies more than once an hour on average would be needed to warrant electrifying the rail corridor, more like headways every 15 minutes or so should be the point to warrant it.

Well the idea would be to run something like a 500kV line under the Hudson. I don't recall the details.

I'm just saying run that above/under the Empire Line and pull off what would be needed for electrification.

(as for level of service, I tend to agree, but how many trains/hour are there to Harrisburg, and also, would it help MNRR to replace its 3rd rail service with cat?) But now we're completely off topic.

Empire Electrification is going to be........ complicated.

First you have to deal with Metro North. Not only getting them to agree to do it in the first place. But just the complexity of the trackwork south of Croton Harmon. Were talking four main track CTC with crossovers rivaling the NEC. That stuff is going to be craaaaazy expensive to string wire over. Okay maybe you can get away with only stringing the middle two tracks. But the track spacing is such your still going to have to put your supports over all four. Then there is a clearance issue. New York State has spent some megabucks making sure CSX can move Plate F cars into Oak Point yard. Your going to have to spend more mega bucks making sure the Plate F clearances are maintained. It's going to be WORSE if you want to string 25KV 60HZ. More clearance needed to prevent arcing.

electricron wrote:The answer to get more electricity south to New York City is to run more 345 kV transmissions lines, or change an existing one into a 500kV transmission line, not run another 138 kV or lower transmission line. Electrifying the existing Empire Line with overhead catenary is a good idea, and should only be done when the decision is made to run more intercity trains on the corridor. Presently, Amtrak only needs 18 P32AC dual mode locomotives for power for the Empire Service trains, I would think providing a service with frequencies more than once an hour on average would be needed to warrant electrifying the rail corridor, more like headways every 15 minutes or so should be the point to warrant it.

Absolutely. It is my understanding that the Hudson River submarine cable project proposes to construct a 300 to 350KV or so DC circuit of about a 1,000MW capacity, with solid state converters at each end. I haven't read the specifics but if the line is in the river bed it would be kept cooler under load and thus not need cooling oil circulation typical in pipe cable construction.

Greg Moore wrote:Not strictly Amtrak (since they don't own most of it) but NYS has been trying to get a new powerline down to NYC from upstate for awhile now.
The most recent plan I believe still involves burying a cable in the Hudson.

I've suggested it be run along the air-rights above Empire Line... and use this infrastructure to eventually electrify it.

How wide is the right of way? For a 500kV line, which is the most cost-effective for a new overhead line to wheel 1,000MW or more power to NYC, the typical minimum right of way is 200 feet width. Even if 345kV was built to match the highest AC Voltage lines presently used in NY and New England, that would need a minimum width of about 175 feet.

Also, typical transmission line spans at these voltages are 700 to 1,000 feet in length, so the monopoles would not be usable for catenary which has to be much more closely spaced.

Thanks for injecting facts. There goes that idea.

That may be the case but turn the scenario around. Imagine for a moment that Amtrak does in fact electrify the Empire Corridor with the typical transmission lines above catenary. Instead of trying to solve New York's problem just imagine the potential revenues for Amtrak if they build transmission slightly above specification (but within engineering constraints). At that point Amtrak would have a viable sub-circuit that the utilities might pay them handsomely for use as a short-medium distance transmission. As long as the power is all 60 Hz its just a matter of voltage and amps. If done correctly that kind of power partnership might actually provide some of the funding for electrification (as I'm sure you initially imagined).

Interesting concept. Note that utility transmission voltage levels, 100kV and above, are regulated as to rates by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and lower voltages by the New York State Public Service Commission. Also, both agencies as well as the New York Independent System Operator also regulate service, need for facilities, interconnection, planning, etc. Amtrak would need to comply with the requirements of these agencies in any such endeavor.

Everyone:

Since this has become a topic on future Empire Corridor electrification I want to ask:

How far north will this electrification go? Will this end at Albany 142 miles from NYP or go west
towards Schenectady or even further?

With a new transmission line being proposed to NYC an overbuild thought was a good idea but
will be challenged on just the visibility changes by themselves. There may be NIMBY opposition
to any proposed routing no matter how practical it may be...

July of this year is the 40th anniversary of the 1977 NYC Blackout in which lightning knocked out
strategic power lines serving NYC - had there been alternate electricity sources or routes available
to provide power Downstate this may have never happened...

MACTRAXX

I think we need to count on the Mods at this point to break this out. I do think it deserves its own discussion.
That said, the NYC power situation should get even more interesting in a few years as King Cuomo announced today his plans to close Indian Point, the pair of nuclear power plants 40 miles north of the city.

So bringing in some power via the Empire Corridor might bring a little relief.

And yes, MNRR is an issue.
Personally, I would envision it going to Albany and that's it. You'd have trains going to Montreal, Rutland and points west. So might as well do all the changes there (at least until you electrify to Buffalo in a century or so

Quite seriously though, back to my other question. Would there be a benefit to MNRR to switch to running under catenary here? They already do east of NYC. This would leave I believe only the Harlem line with 3rd rail. Perhaps then MNRR can run some trains from Poughkeepsie to New Haven then.

I doubt MNRR would be interested.

First. You have the maze that is GCT. The long super tight tunnel leading into it. I can't imagine the cost of overhead on what is estially a huge mass of spagetti there. Nor how the hell your going to get clearance in the park ave tunnel. It is so damn tight in there, that the engines require a nose door in case the engineer needs to bail from a burning loco.

Second. The New Haven line is third rail for a bit. MNRR actually destrung some of the overhead and moved the third rail east.

Third. MNRR just bought all new MU cars.

As an aside, a little bit of the Empire line actually has overhead. They put an overhead wire out thru the empire connection tunnel to just past the interlocking outside the tunnel where it goes double track. Why? As a plan B. If for whatever reason they are out of third rail locos for a southbound train. A diesel only unit could bring the train down to that point. Another crew would bring a AC overhead electric motor out of Penn Station and drag the train in with the diesel shut off.

Alcochaser wrote: As an aside, a little bit of the Empire line actually has overhead. They put an overhead wire out thru the empire connection tunnel to just past the interlocking outside the tunnel where it goes double track. Why? As a plan B. If for whatever reason they are out of third rail locos for a southbound train. A diesel only unit could bring the train down to that point. Another crew would bring a AC overhead electric motor out of Penn Station and drag the train in with the diesel shut off.

I saw that happen to Maple Leaf 64 a few years ago after a big snowstorm upstate.