Time for a new North American universal signaling system?

Jtgshu wrote:Cab signals are far superior to fixed signals, as cab signals immediately send the trains information through the rails as to the track condition and occupancy ahead.

The cab signal system can give different speed allowances based on the track occupancy ahead, with much smaller blocks than fixed signals. As soon as a train ahead clears up a section of track, the cab signal immediately pops up to a better indication, or higher speed. Without cab signals, you would have to wait until the next fixed signal rolled around and was visible.

I have read some material on moving block, and this coupled with real time speed code signaling (or automatic train control, driverless trains, etc) could prove to be the next install base of signaling. I agree this does in theory sound to be more powerful.

CROR410 wrote:What is so complicated about it?

I'm sure it's all crystal clear in your head -- but your explanation of the system (and its benefits worthy of the investment) are lacking in clarity. Don't expect an easy sell here -- even though I doubt there will be anyone in this forum who is a true economic buyer (purchase decison maker) anyway!

What's that Biblical quote? "Cast ye not pearls before swine?" People will not tend to readily accept a change (though you claim it to be an "easy" one) if it's not clear what the benefits will be. And as I said, it's not clear.

I'm wondering -- how much have you experienced the operation of the disparate signals systems already in existence? Honestly, they are not all that different except maybe in appearance. Functionally they are very similar.

There's really much more to "knowing" a particular territory than just the speeds at various points along the way. You do know that much, right? Or have you never "qualified" on a piece of railroad?

I would say implementing the already proven cab signal technology makes the most sense. The railroads will not install them everywhere, however, unless they are mandated by law and/or heavily subsidized by government.

LCJ wrote:What's that Biblical quote? "Cast ye not pearls before swine?"

Its also in the Bible: 'All things old are passsed away and made new again'.

Yeah -- OK.

Since we're just tossing ideas around, here's one that is simpler. If you want to be able to signal increments of speed, and perhaps other information, let's take advantage of that LED technology you mention and make the signal head a large square or rectangle, and just put the desired speed up there digitally like a jumbotron at the football game. If the thing reads "30" that's your authorized speed. Absolutely not "railroad-like" or what us older guys are used to, but simpler to use than counting blinks. The simpler you keep it, the easier to use and train people for.

If you want more information, at the cost of simplicity, have duplicate sets of different color LED's. If it's green 45, you're going straight through at the next signal. Yellow 45 means you may get a more restrictive indication. Your STOP indications could be red LED's.

Very costly to convert to, but since this is just for putting ideas out there, there's one to kick around.

I used to run the Morrisville line, and it was a cab signaled line, with the only wayside signals being a "clear to next interlocking" signal. I never did get comfortable with just cab signals, without corresponding waysides. Nothing like staring at the ceiling, wondering if the thing is really working, or not. Not as "bad" as dark territory, with your clearance being just a piece of paper, and the hope that the guys on the other trains knew where they were, and stopped where they were supposed to. But unless you are running it daily, and can put your faith into it, it's just another way to ruin your day. Some Penn men might have been comfortable with them, but I never made the adaptation to them. Now, the Harrisburg line, that was something better, with cabs and waysides. NJCL, and the NEC also come to mind.........

Also in the Bible: "This copy provided courtesy of the Giddeons".............

BR&P wrote:If you want to be able to signal increments of speed, and perhaps other information, let's take advantage of that LED technology you mention and make the signal head a large square or rectangle, and just put the desired speed up there digitally like a jumbotron at the football game. If the thing reads "30" that's your authorized speed. Absolutely not "railroad-like" or what us older guys are used to, but simpler to use than counting blinks. The simpler you keep it, the easier to use and train people for.

There are signals on some German lines that use this. Clikc here to see an illustration:
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/siis.htm

They also used two heads to signal the 'now' and the 'next', on the same mast, similiar to my model where the 1st head was the 'now' and the 2nd was the 'next'.

The German 'Ks' system combines all if this into a single signal head:
http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/shks.htm
...and while this looks complex the number of apsects is still fairly low.

Interestingly enough, the Netherlands abandoned their 3-head color signal system and replaced it with a system that uses a single head and a number system. Click here to read about the 1946 and 1955 light systems:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mdeen/trains/seinen/seinpaal.html

WEll its a neat idea but my friend you must remember( all rails will agree with this) Your railroad could have 100 miles ( exagerated of course) of straight track and dont you know they will put that absolute signal on the first curve! So trying to count blinks at 70 coming around a curve that the signal head is blocked anyway by trees and such growing in said curve would be kinda tough
I have mine memorized and I like the system we have. Cost like lcj said, is not only in upgrades but also re training. But its always good to try to build the better mousetrap.
Also in the Bible a little verse I saw as I step off in Western Ave yard at 1 am " Yea though I walk throught the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.......As I have an Air Brake wrench which makes me the meanest mother in the valley!( include also fussee's track spikes and a bad attitude early in the morning )

route_rock wrote:.....the signal head is blocked anyway by trees and such growing in said curve would be kinda tough

If its blocked by trees how can you be sure if its flashing or not, espescially if the tree branches and leaves are moving about. Souns like the root problem there is not cutting back the growth.

CROR410 wrote:

route_rock wrote:.....the signal head is blocked anyway by trees and such growing in said curve would be kinda tough

If its blocked by trees how can you be sure if its flashing or not, especially if the tree branches and leaves are moving about. Sounds like the root problem there is not cutting back the growth.

Exactly. I'm not an expert however the times I have been to Europe the RR companies tend to take care of their eqpt and property better than the RR's in the US do. Placement of A blocks hidden around blind curves, vegetation grown up blocking signals from view until you are a few hundred feet away, speed boards missing, x-ing bucks torn down and not replaced. The CTC system on the Salt Lake route in some parts has not been upgraded in years. Only in the canyon between Moapa and Caliente where it was flooded out in 2005 has money been spent on upgrades. I must say that the newer LCD signals (far and few between though on our RR) are quite nice. I think if Uncle Sam required a new signal system they would have to chip in for it. I don't think the upper mgt. would like to spend the millions if not billions required to change out/upgrade the existing system. Not to mention the fact the training requirements to teach the new system to the guys and gals out running the trains.