Through Running Instead of Penn South?

lensovet wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:58 pm Given that ridership hasn’t recovered from covid, not sure why we’re buying more equipment.

It also seems weird to draw a parallel to London, where everything was owned and operated by a single agency.

I’m having a hard time believing that anyone commuting from NJ is transferring to MNR or LIRR. Subway, yes. Other trains? Where are these people going? Jamaica?

That said, I completely support removing MSG and getting the pillars out of the station.

Last thing first, yes, move MSG out and rebuild the station. Deck over the LIRR yard and plop it there. Build a new hotel on top, call it the Hotel Pennsylvanian.

But for through running, it needs to be studied to death. I'm with you, there's probably only a handful of folks who could take a through-running from Trenton to Jamaica to work at JFK Airport. It gets even worse the farther you go. Dover to Yonkers? High Bridge to New Rochelle?

If it turns out there's enough to run a few trains going through... you'll need multi-mode equipment or power trailers (which is what Amtrak is moving to with the Airo sets).

My opinion on through-running is evolving. With Grand Central Madison open, you no longer have to make the Times Square Shuttle Shuffle (Copyright pending lol), making the transfer somewhat easier (especially if one knows about the GCT North passageway. Once MNRR is running into Penn, NJT to MNRR becomes far easier.

Here's the key: what difference in station dwell times does through-running make? You unload, and zip into Sunnyside or West Side yards, without having to wait for boarding. You can do both simultaneously, but that just seems to be problematic. But yet, having to transfer means dwell times for two tracks.

Sounds like something AI can figure out.

One thing people are forgetting like MARC or SEPTA, people get on the train then off at the downtown stations where new people get on and the train continues with new and granted possible some old people to their next destination.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:17 am My opinion on through-running is evolving. With Grand Central Madison open, you no longer have to make the Times Square Shuttle Shuffle (Copyright pending lol), making the transfer somewhat easier (especially if one knows about the GCT North passageway. Once MNRR is running into Penn, NJT to MNRR becomes far easier.

Here's the key: what difference in station dwell times does through-running make? You unload, and zip into Sunnyside or West Side yards, without having to wait for boarding. You can do both simultaneously, but that just seems to be problematic. But yet, having to transfer means dwell times for two tracks.

Sounds like something AI can figure out.

I think that from the time through running was first brought up the focus has been on movement of equipment rather than people; i.e., one through movement eliminates two deadhead yard moves even if everybody gets off and different people get on, thus cutting down on the total number of movements. It would mean that most or all movements through the river tunnels would have passengers on board.

Red Wing wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 5:47 pm One thing people are forgetting like MARC or SEPTA, people get on the train then off at the downtown stations where new people get on and the train continues with new and granted possible some old people to their next destination.

SEPTA does that and is designed to do that. It has the infrastructure to do it, is 100% caternary so it's equipment is sufficient to do it.

MARC doesn't at it's current state, and can't really:

• "Thru-running Baltimore" only indicates a gross misunderstanding on the Penn (NEC) line operations. Also how MARC turns equipment isn't "thru-running" by any means.
• While even Brunswick line equipment is ran on the Penn line, they don't turn them immediately. There's at least a 20 minute delay, and I think mainly to switch engineers (if not engines, because diesel to electric).
• Also, you don't get much if any "West VA to Baltimore" traffic. It's faster to take I-70 from a sheer mileage.
• We've discussed MARC through-running to death in another section of the forums.

And SEPTA had to modify before it started run throughs granted same frequency and voltage.
Please enlighten me on my gross misunderstanding. Is Baltimore a major city? Does a train start north or south of the station? Does the train stop at the station and continue? Yes to all.
And thank you for reminding me that the there will soon be through running in DC..
If there's a will there's a way.

North and south of Baltimore is the same state. Welcome to America, that makes a pretty huge difference.

Red Wing wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:15 pm And SEPTA had to modify before it started run throughs granted same frequency and voltage.
Please enlighten me on my gross misunderstanding. Is Baltimore a major city? Does a train start north or south of the station? Does the train stop at the station and continue? Yes to all.
And thank you for reminding me that the there will soon be through running in DC..
If there's a will there's a way.

Baltimore is a major city about an hour drive northeast of DC. Most MARC trains start at the station, while some extend out northeast in Perryville (half-way between Baltimore and Wilmington). Those limited numbers do stop in Baltimore. So yes, it through-runs in Baltimore by design.

However, it does not through-run in DC between it's individual branches like SEPTA does. MARC Camden, Brunswick, and Penn lines *terminate* at DC, because it's usually the major city everyone flocks to and DC Union Station (WAS) is built to be a terminal first, through-run second. Thus it cannot through-run in that respect.

It can through-run on CSX track like VRE though... and the powers that be are working on proper through-running.

Erie-Lackawanna wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:30 pmI would argue that building Penn South should be first, and when/if that fills up, then talk about through running to further increase capacity. The longer you wait for big projects, the more they cost. Get it done sooner rather than later.

They should do both. US transportation systems, NYC transit in particular have a habit of running everything right at 100% capacity during peak times, leaving no capacity for recovery when something goes wrong. It's worthwhile adding capacity so that things run more smoothly and have more resiliency- although that might drive more ridership growth too, but there are a lot of ways to add capacity. Remove MSG, Penn South, through-running, longer trains with LIRR electrification, all combined add a LOT of capacity.

lensovet wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:58 pmThat said, I completely support removing MSG and getting the pillars out of the station.

Exactly. That's a key to getting through-running to work, as you're depending on moving more people around more quickly to make the through-running worthwhile.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:38 pmI think that from the time through running was first brought up the focus has been on movement of equipment rather than people; i.e., one through movement eliminates two deadhead yard moves even if everybody gets off and different people get on, thus cutting down on the total number of movements. It would mean that most or all movements through the river tunnels would have passengers on board.

Exactly. The way that the numbers work out, if NJT and MN PSA through-ran, about 1/3 of NJT trains would terminate or originate as MN PSA trains. LIRR through-running never made any sense, as LIRR is an entirely third-rail operation. LIRR should properly re-balance traffic between Brooklyn, and upgraded LIC with ferry terminal, GCM, and Penn.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:00 pm That said... caternary power, underrunning third rail, overruning third rail. Amtrak, Metro-North, and LIRR have different operations. The thing here is... how do you resolve how these trains are powered?

You solve under- and over-running third rail doing what MNRR did; adjustable DC shoes to go over or under. The M8's also have catenary, which gets them to the Hell Gate. The issue in through running here is the gap in electrification of any sort from north of the Empire Tunnel portal to the Hudson Line. The M7 and M7a's can't run through to New Haven territory, but if you equip them with the M8 shoes they could run through to LIRR. Or, you could use an expanded M8 fleet to do such. Although it's a roundabout way, you could then actually ride a train from Yonkers to White Plains in an M7a, or Stamford on an M8.

Amtrak already through-runs along the NEC. For getting them on Long Island, use the Empire Service trains, which have LIRR-style shoes.

NJT could through run to MNRR New Haven territory with the ALP's. You can't get MNRR to NJT though.

So you have NJT - MNRR
MNRR using the Empire Connection if electrified in certain equipment to certain lines
Amtrak to LI using Empire trains
MNRR - LIRR - LIRR using retractable shoes if Empire Connection electrified

My head hurts...

If you have the Hudson Line keeping third rail, then you can do the under/over shoe system for LIRR... but in the long run, it makes a lot more sense for the Hudson Line to use overhead AC electrification and extend northward, so then you're kind of back to square one. You could still have 1/3 of NJT trains through-run with PSA, and keep everything else running on its own. LIRR is basically on it's own planet, so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to through-run LIRR anyway.

Ultimately, you're talking about potentially billions in spending to replace working infrastructure to compensate for the fact that three different railroads, who had no interest in through-running with each other decided 100 years ago to each use their own preferred version of what (at the time) was brand new technology. The NYC and the NH may have cooperated to get trains to Grand Central, and the PRR and NH may have cooperated to get trains from Washington - Boston, but the NYC and PRR cooperating? Not even after 1968 when they were both part of the same company! The names on the equipment may have changed, but the politics on each side of Manhattan haven't.

For someone from afar the whole NY region situation is a mess. It has 4 different RRs, 2 different DC 3rd rail, under running and over running, 2 different overhead CAT systems with 25 Hz and 60 Hz. Also, the use of dual power capable units of 3rd rail and overhead 60 Hz, which was once 25 Hz, It is like who will blink first.

What is most likely obsolete? IMO it is the 25 Hz system. Amtrak rightly feels that it can live with 25 Hz for the foreseeable future as other items are much more needed. It would be informative what extra Amtrak has to spend each year to purchase replacement 25 Hz equipment or more likely very expensive dual 25/60Hz equipment.

What would be most financially prudent is to slowly replace sections with 60 Hz overhead and use retired 24 Hz equipment for spares on the remaining 25 Hz. WASH - Perry is one obvious location. However, IMO it is time to start in NY City. Convert SSY Sunnyside yard first. Phase breaks at all entrances. Then east river tunnels probably they can be prepared with the scheduled rehab. Along with those tunnels NYP itself to the old Hudsone river openings. New Gateway should be 60 Hz from beginnings.

With all of the above 60 Hz OCS on westside line will allow M-8 type EMUs to provide service and also be somewhat thru running of MNRR Hell Gate service..

Now the motive power mess around NY City. Amtrak's order of the ALC-42Es will do it a very long term benefit. 8 powered axels will improve acceleration from the many slower sections. Suspect that the power car will not weigh as much so the adhesion will limit it somewhat the HP but unknown as of now how much,

The equipment order for Empire was a puzzle as the electric was to be 3rd rail limiting speeds. But that is now an order made in stone. Appearances would have it that someone at NY DOT said well we can use them to get GCT <> ALB Amtrak service. My question is how long a warm up time for the QSKs before they can have a full load demand? Where does 3rd rail power end on the west side line? It is unknown as of now when the prime movers will need starting. NYP or just before leaving 3rd rail territory.

Amtrak's new Airo trainsets for Empire Service reportedly do not have 3rd rail shoes, but will use batteries within NYC and diesel north of there. The speed limit on 3rd rail, British intercity equipment is generally designed to operate at 100 MPH on third rail--it's more likely that speed limits lower than that around NYC are dictated by safety concerns other than third rail.