The rush to rip up track, and why keep the track they did...

Previously someone stated that Conrail abandoned the EL lines systematically. I really truly believe this too.

My examples are the EL mainline and the 1st Sub-Division from Cleveland to Leavittsburg.

The 1st SD was chopped up quickly by Conrail. I believe 1983 was the last through Cleveland-Youngstown train. At that point the line was truncated at Mantua to service a factory. This line was an important link because freight from the Chessie and P&LE was interchanged at Graham Yard in Youngstown, and the freight had many paths it could take: Southeast on the old B&O and P&LE, Northeast on the former EL, now Conrail, due North via Conrail's Youngstown Line, Northwest direct to Cleveland via the old EL, west on the EL main and B&O, and Southwest on the old PRR. By removing the Youngstown end of the EL's 1st SD, there were fewer routes to interchange with and more delays with more congested routes. Today, NS has total ownership of what's left of the 1st SD, from MP 3 to MP 37.5, even though the crossed ties are in Solon at the Stouffer's plant, the last remaining customer south of Randall Yard. For many years now various interest groups have tried to get Cleveland-Youngstown commuter rail service reinstated along this line, but this would be an impossible feat, especially with the bike path on the ROW in Garretsville.

The second point is the EL main, from Youngstown to Marion, at which point CR no longer needed the EL lines. The Youngstown to Marion line, basically MP 150 to MP 305, was extremly important at the start of CR. Eventually they routed every single train they could off of that line. Apparently it was easier for a train going from Graham Yard to Marion Yard to head south on the PRR main to Sebring and head west on the Ft. Wayne line and take the SW connector at Crestline to get on the Big Four main and swing west through Galion and into Marion, then it was to take the train over the EL main from Youngstown right into Marion.

Akron was a major loser in the Conrail sector. They had the old CA&C line(traffic from the Ft. Wayne Line in Orrville would swing onto the PC remnant of the CA&C and head into Hudson, or use trackage rights on B&O from Massilon to the CA&C interchange to reach Hudson) and the EL main, both which saw heavy traffic at first. There was never very much for Conrail in downtown Akron as far as customers.

In the 80's, CR did some stupid reductions on the EL main (all of these also included free-of-charge single tracking). The main from Leavittsburg to Ravenna was left intact but rarely used as a "bridge" from Warren to the PRR Cleveland Line. The line was kept intact from Ravenna to Arlington (Akron suburb). Along this stretch was a grain elevator in Kent, a limestone quarry south of Kent, and a plastics plant next to Brittian Rd. Through Conrail inginuity, they decided to end the EL main at MP 201 in the woods west of Arlington, They also, somehow, took the CA&C line, which paralleled the B&O main all through Akron, and crossed it over the B&O to connect into the EL stub, to facilitate some kind of backup maneuvers between the two lines. This job merged the "Akron Secondary" and the "Freedom Secondary" into the Akron Cluster. Eventually CR grew wary of paralleling the CSX line, and put an interchange switch in at Rt. 59 next to Rt. 8. Of course, 3 years later, in 1996, they'd run their last train through this area. The tracks were never removed (aside from the old PRR line that CR removed as part of their interchange with CSX) and most everything else MP signs, W markers, remain.

The EL main was removed through Akron, until south of the city proper, where it became a spur off of the CSX main, and headed into Barberton and Rittman, where the tracks were cut just east of Main St. This line was sold in 1993 to Akron & Baberton Belt to expand their line. The tracks were again removed from Rittman through Sterling and Creston, and restart in the woods east of West Salem. The tracks were kept intact as a single track Ashland Secondary. The former crossing of the EL and PRR in Mansfield was turned into a junction that had westbound Ashland Sec. trains heading west on the Ft. Wayne Line. By 1986 Conrail wasn't thrilled with this line, and quickly sold it to the Ashland Railway.

Heading west out of Mansfield was the Ontario Secondary, the part of the EL main CR did keep in Mansfield. At CP MANS the eastbound Ontario Sec. trains head east on the Ft. Wayne Line. The Ontario Secondary runs to Ontario where Ontario Yard is that serves the GM plant. The line once again ends in woods a half mile after the yard. Obviously the line was removed between Ontario and Galion, and that's when the Indianapolis Line swings west and the joint NYC-EL line started. Interesting note is that most of the Indy Line between Marion and Galion is single tracked. Guess which line they used as the survivor: You guessed it, the NYC.

There were probably good reasons for the tracks to be abandoned between Youngstown and Galion, but I've never found them. It seems that if a train needed to get to the Indy Line, CR either routed them via Water Level Route through Cleveland south on the Big Four, or via the Ft. Wayne line and interchange at Crestline.

Interesting! I knew some of the information about the EL mainline's fate in Ohio, but I didn't know the whole story. Funny how CR was supposed to be a more efficient operation (and often accomplished that feat), but couldn't figure out a useful way to handle former EL routes.

Consider the story of the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR (LAL) mainline. For those of you not familiar with the area, the original line was a former Erie line that connected its namesake towns in upstate NY. It was no longer profitable for EL to operate the line by 1964, but rather than rip the tracks up, Bill White & co were glad to let some local entrepenuers take over the lie. Those gentlemen gradually built up LAL into a very profitable shortline. During its early years, EL was a friendly connection in Avon. P&L Junction was not far away (Caledonia) and EL gladly provided interchange with RRs such as GWRR, LV and B&O.

Flash forward to 1976: CR begins operations. Now they didn't really want to operate the Avon-Caledonia segment, because they had alternate access to to GWRR and B&O. However, this left LAL hostage to a monopolistic connection that cared little for interchange traffic. LAL tried in vain to purchase the Avon-Caledonia segment for access to B&O (as an alternative interchange) but CR denied them the opportunity and ripped up the line.

Even without the connection to B&O, LAL prospered and grew. In 1996, CR finally sold the former Erie line between Genesee Jct (Rochester, NY) and Avon to LAL. While LAL was glad to have the additional customers, their interchange partner was still exclusively CR. In fact, Big Blue would not let LAL have access to the west end of Genesee Jct, which was the interchange to Rochester & Southern. (The latter RR was a remnant of the same B&O line I mentionned earlier, and received traffic from D&H/CP on the Southern Tier Mainline.) Nor could R&S drop cars at the eastern end of the Genesee Jct yard for LAL. Again, we're talkig about enterprise denied by CR on former Erie routes. Furthemrore, CR could charge a hefty fee for moving interchange traffic just a few hundred feet!

This situation, referred to as a "Chinese Wall" by industry experts , remained in effect until the CR split in 1999. As a condition of approving the merger, LAL demanded and got the right to interhange with R&S, despite strong objections from CR's like-minded successor CSX. Notice how this entire scenario was to ensure that CR and its former NYC routes would handle a majority of the traffic to LAL. However, it backfired. These days, LAL receives more traffic from R&S (and this indirectly from NS and CP) via an Erie-B&O routing than it does from CSX's Water Level Route.

BTW, I'm posting this not as a"foamer" or to be anti-NYC, but rather to illustrate the value of former EL properties and their misuse by CR.

Fact checking---

Matt Langworthy wrote: Consider the story of the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR (LAL) mainline...[Conrail] didn't really want to operate the Avon-Caledonia segment, because they had alternate access to to GWRR and B&O. However, this left LAL hostage to a monopolistic connection that cared little for interchange traffic. LAL tried in vain to purchase the Avon-Caledonia segment for access to B&O (as an alternative interchange) but CR denied them the opportunity and ripped up the line.

Fact: It was USRA, not Conrail, that refused to allow LAL to acquire the Avon-Caledonia line that would have afforded access to both Conrail and B&O. This mistake resembles one made by many observers, including Don Phillips in Trains Magazine (more than once), who confuse the trackage that was left behind in 1976--either left with the estates of the bankruot railroads or quickly abandoned by Conrail--with the abandonments that Conrail completed pursuant to the Northeast Rail Services Act of 1981.

Matt Langworthy wrote: In 1996, CR finally sold the former Erie line between Genesee Jct (Rochester, NY) and Avon to LAL. While LAL was glad to have the additional customers, their interchange partner was still exclusively CR. In fact, Big Blue would not let LAL have access to the west end of Genesee Jct, which was the interchange to Rochester & Southern.

Fact: Additional carloads totaled less than 300 cars per year. LAL bought the Avon-Genesee Jct line because it had to. Conrail had deferred the maintenance so long that the line was in danger of being shut down. It had been forced out of service twice during 1995. The scenarios offered by Conrail's asset management group included abandonment, resulting in the extinction of LAL's 2,300-car-a-year business, or sale to another short line which would then extract all the value of the traffic. LAL swallowed hard and assumed a $1.5 million rehabilitation burden the day it took over the line.

Matt Langworthy wrote: This situation, referred to as a "Chinese Wall" by industry experts , remained in effect until the CR split in 1999.

Fact: It is referred to in the rail industry as a "paper barrier."


Minor corrections to an otherwise correct posting.

WDB

Mr. Burt, Matt Langworthy, et. al.

As a semi-railfan who is fascinated by the history of railroads, and the E-L (the old DL&W now NYSW Utica branch runs through my town) I have really enjoyed this thread. It's like a 4 credit-hour seminar in railroad and local history! Thanks for the enjoyable summertime reading!

Regarding ELBrad's comments about the dismemberment of the Erie in Ohio, there is a simple explanation: no traffic base.

The line out of Cleveland had very few on-line consignees. The Erie (NYPANO) Ore Dock in Cleveland was on the Old Cuyahoga River course and was a terribly outmoded facility. The Old River could not handle the larger ore boats, and even the smaller ones required one or two tugs depending on weather conditions. There was no support yard. Typically, cuts of cars would be tripled together to make an outbound train for Randall Yard. By comparison, the C&P Docks were on the Lakefront, could handle the largest ore boats, and start 150-car drags right off the docks.

The USRA decided that the middle portion from Mantua (Carlyon Co.) to Leavittsburg was redundant as there were no on-line consignees. There was no reason to keep the line intact as a through route with the parallel PRR (C&P) route in better shape.

Youngstown, Niles, Warren, Akron, and Cleveland were all dying industrially. What traffic base was there steadily eroded as the economy faltered. The number of consignees served out of Literary St. and Von Willer Yards continued to decline. The only on-line city with an expanding industrial base was Solon, and the E-L had no access to the new consignees which were serviced exclusively off the old W&LE mainline from Falls Jct. (which branch crossed the ERIE on diamonds at Solon).

As far as future passenger use is concerned, there is no market for commuter service to downtown Cleveland now, and there hasn't been for many years. Wisely or not, the State of Ohio never made the commitment to support intercity rail passenger services, so that market is also gone.

Unfortunately, the ERIE was an unnecessary luxury post-Conrail.

As far as the trackage in Akron is concerned, the B&O mainline was actually owned by the PRR/PC/CR from Akron Jct. (Arlington St.) to Warwick. This was the CA&C line of the PRR family. The B&O took trackage rights out when the decision was made to tie the Pittsburgh / Akron line with the CL&W Warwick to Sterling and have a new mainline from Sterling to Willard (Chicago Jct.), thus creating the latter day B&O direct mainline. Conrail owned this until the fall-out from the "great butane burn-off" in Akron c. 1988, when it was pressured to sell the line to CSX.

wdburt1 wrote:Fact: It was USRA, not Conrail, that refused to allow LAL to acquire the Avon-Caledonia line that would have afforded access to both Conrail and B&O. This mistake resembles one made by many observers, including Don Phillips in Trains Magazine (more than once), who confuse the trackage that was left behind in 1976--either left with the estates of the bankrupt railroads or quickly abandoned by Conrail--with the abandonments that Conrail completed pursuant to the Northeast Rail Services Act of 1981.

That is, in fact, where I got my information so I stand corrected.

wdburt1 wrote: LAL bought the Avon-Genesee Jct line because it had to. Conrail had deferred the maintenance so long that the line was in danger of being shut down. It had been forced out of service twice during 1995.

Ouch! I did not know that. In fact, it comes a bit of a surprise because I had lunch every Friday with a RR "insider" who never mentionned that aspect of the purchase.

wdburt1 wrote:Matt Langworthy wrote: This situation, referred to as a "Chinese Wall" by industry experts , remained in effect until the CR split in 1999.

Fact: It is referred to in the rail industry as a "paper barrier."

That same "insider" used that term, as did some of the articles describing the plight of your RR. However, "paper barrier" does sound more logical. Thanks again for your insightful posts, Bill. You are a credit to the RR business.

P.S. Joe- I'm glad you enjoyed the posts. Do yourself a favor and check out H. Roger Grant's book Erie Lackawanna: Death Of An American Railroad 1938-1992. You'll learn alot from it, as I did.

When did Conrail tear up the EL tracks east of West Salem through Sterling? Does anyone know when the last train ran?

Conrail tore up the EL tracks in early 1983 (spring) from the Route 83 crossing in Burbank, east through Sterling to Rittman. The section from West Salem to Burbank was torn up somtime around 1986 or 1987. Also, the I-71 bridge over the EL tracks (in Wayne County) was removed in 2003 and filled in, during the 3rd lane construction of the highway. The Route 83 crossing in Burbank was paved over in 1982.

A very interesting but sad thread.

Looking to the future, I truly hope the Cut-off will be realized and hope to see that day as I would like to be one of the first on that special day as I wave to the angry Nimbys who prefer sitting in traffic talking on their cell-phones or being bombarded by trucks from the Mt. Hope exit.

Cheers.

You *may* enjoy this site of Conrail on the cut-off:

http://www.gsmrrclub.org/HISTORY/history5.html

The Cut-Off was another victim of CR's desire for virtual monopoly of the Northeastern freight market. For all his intelligence and accolades (largely warranted), Stanley Crane would have been better off ceding/selling the Cut-Off and the rest of the remains of EL to D&H. Obviously, EL wasn't a priority for CR but D&H could have made good use of it.

Let's not forget that part of the scenario involved NS's bid for CR. If NS had access to an independant route to the New York City/northern NJ market (as N&W had with both EL and LV), then they would have had little reason to purchase CR.

Although it's going slowly, I look forward to the day when the Cut-Off reopens for passenger traffic, and hopefully freight as well. BTW, the best way to deal with the NIMBYs is to start your advocacy group or join an existing one, NJvike. Good luck!

Matt Langworthy wrote: Although it's going slowly, I look forward to the day when the Cut-Off reopens for passenger traffic, and hopefully freight as well. BTW, the best way to deal with the NIMBYs is to start your advocacy group or join an existing one, NJvike. Good luck!

I also await the day for when we can see both passenger and freight but one step at a time, I guess.

I try to feed the railroad's side of the story to several community newsgroups in the area so they hear both sides of the story; not just the groups that are uninformed and spread incorrect information.

Hopefully, the public will buy-in.

I wonder how many railfans will be there on the first ride? I know I'll be there

Thanks for the great thread, fascinating business and railroad history.

Brooks

NJ Vike wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote: Although it's going slowly, I look forward to the day when the Cut-Off reopens for passenger traffic, and hopefully freight as well. BTW, the best way to deal with the NIMBYs is to start your advocacy group or join an existing one, NJvike. Good luck!

I also await the day for when we can see both passenger and freight but one step at a time, I guess.

I try to feed the railroad's side of the story to several community newsgroups in the area so they hear both sides of the story; not just the groups that are uninformed and spread incorrect information.

Hopefully, the public will buy-in.

I wonder how many railfans will be there on the first ride? I know I'll be there

I don't think there would be enough room on the train to fit all the railfans when the Lackawanna Cutoff is opened. There may not be a lot of information out there about the DL&W and the enormous engineering feats they created, but there are a lot of die hard railfans out there.

Then I shall do what I did when Steamtown opened- I shall go after the initial opening hoopla has died down and savor an "ordinary" day on the restored Lackawanna Cut-Off.